Balance aside... the wonderful Horde gameplay is great.

[bbqftw]

I would say that Ottoman (or 'conventional' nation with low tech penalty group) WC generally tests MP management, whereas horde WCs are much more a test of economic / battle management, with very little MP management (though I think as horde WC are more optimized we will see a higher emphasis on this, as people adjust to the fact that DIP is not the sole limiting factor to diplo-annexing territory, diplomat-time is very important as well, thus diplomatic's importance may outpace influence with hordes now).

Every horde (except for Uzbek maybe) will have to fight wars outnumbered early game if they want to have a good start.

Both have their challenges, I would say that the horde gameplay is more entertaining if your war micro is good though.

 

[grommile]

No, my argument is that because WC is complete fantasy (not one I have an issue with, it must be made clear, but one none-the-less), what is the issue with one nation (Kazan) being better than another (the Ottomans) at doing it?

Even if we say that WC is complete fantasy (which it is), it is perfectly reasonable to say that it's more fantastical, from the game-start position, for - say - Kazan or Ryukyu to do it than for the Ottomans to do it.

 

[PhroX]

Even if we say that WC is complete fantasy (which it is), it is perfectly reasonable to say that it's more fantastical, from the game-start position, for - say - Kazan or Ryukyu to do it than for the Ottomans to do it.

Given that we have no idea what it would take to successfully complete a world conquest in reality, then I don't see any particular reason to think the Ottomans would be more suited to it. Sure, they control more land than Kazan did in 1444, but it's likely that so many other factors would come into play that in the end that would be a pretty minor thing.

 

[Edmon]

... which is the whole point of spending valuable ADM on humanist ideas. Why is that a problem?

It isn't, humanist isn't optimal for rapid WC. But it's not a unique problem for Hordes that humanist makes a nation extremely stable and thus almost removes the rebellion side of the game.

 

[Jomini]

The nerf will certainly be about getting AE for razing provinces and being only able to gain points by razing if you're technologically behind any tags with a core on the province.

R-right?

We can certainly hope not. AE is a terrible kludge already. Once you can rotate theaters, it becomes multiplicatively less limiting. Conversely, as you lose ways to spread AE it scales horridly quickly.

This is the precise sort of kludge that rewards elite players while making the game more tedious and boring for everyone.

The tech restrictions, likewise, will not do much and make the place still quite silly. It rewards already questionable practices like farming minors or setting up for quick shocks of instant teching. Ultimately this would just make a lot of hordes simply more boring - they are surrounded by other hordes and have low & slow teching neighbors.

Frankly I hope Pdox will finally quit trying to do internal balances kludges, they are not well integrated into the game and they invite the most silly of gaming behavior. Take the historical route - if you raze a province, then the tag holder gets bonuses (e.g. universal manpower increase, reduced RR, higher forces limit, relationship boost with co-religionists/same culture groups). Possibly even make razing give an event the allows truce to be wiped.

Right now razing is interesting because it is one of the few ways that actually lets you play at the limit of your skill rather than waiting out a timer. If you need MP for an idea, well then you can go raze your way to it if you can turn gold & manpower into victories. Every single feature that allows players to control their MP destiny has pretty much always been vastly more interesting than anything that ends up doing nothing while you have to wait on timers. I do hope Pdox will keep in something wickedly fun that puts your destiny into your strategic hands.

 

[Rygel8472]

...
Every horde (except for Uzbek maybe) will have to fight wars outnumbered early game if they want to have a good start.
...

*Cough* Timurids *Cough*

They start with game with the 2nd highest developement, ~7th highest income, and THE highest forcelimit.

 

[Holgard]

So, not different to any serious "conventional" WC game, then? But just relying on some half-baked mechanics.

edit: ok, I missed how you can get stuck in a regency, which hardly changes the point, though.

I like how your response to someone saying they are having a lot of fun with hordes is essentially: "Ohhhhh... Look at this pleb.... Thinking Hordes have a difference to the world conquests I do... Hmhmhmhm. Only I do it with Muscovy so I'm better Ohohohoho, time to Mali world conquest again."

It would be good for you to maybe realise that not everyone plays world conquest games.

 

[Thesian]

Sure, I have literally 1/4 of the planet in just under 40 years.

Did you double-check that the total development of the world is really around 2000 at this point? Otherwise your premise of having "literally 1/4 of the planet" might be flawed.

 

[Edmon]

Did you double-check that the total development of the world is really around 2000 at this point? Otherwise your premise of having "literally 1/4 of the planet" might be flawed.

Think about it.

 

[Thesian]

Think about it.

The more I think about it, the closer I come to the conclusion your premise is flawed.

 

[oblio-]

The more I think about it, the closer I come to the conclusion your premise is flawed.

Considering the fact that he controls Central Asia, he more likely controls 1/10th of the Earth's landmass but only something like 1/100th of the world's development.

Source: I've played a lot in Central Asia and the vast majority of those provinces are dirt poor. Samarkand and maybe 1-2 other cities are above 10 development. They do look great on the map though, it looks like you have a huge empire.

 

[ChildeR]

Considering the fact that he controls Central Asia, he more likely controls 1/10th of the Earth's landmass but only something like 1/100th of the world's development.

Now, don't exaggerate. He controls over 2% of global development. 507 in the screenshot, with global development starting at below 20k and probably having taken a hit due to his razing. Maybe even 3%!

 

[Frogbait]

I think Marco said it best with this:

IMO the only thing that makes them very appealing is their ability to raze, if you take that away or reduce it drastically without adjusting their handicaps accordingly they will become a pathetically weak start by comparison with for example the Ottomans or any powerful western tech start.

Personally I think razing is overblown with how "OP" it is and that the community itself is causing this nerf by trying to rationalize that Razing breaks the game when it really doesn't. All razing does is provide another way to WC easily different than the traditional routes. In well run MP games it's not an issue, it doesn't make hordes super OP in the AI's hands, it doesn't break the game. Sure people can WC about as easily now as you could with the ottomans previously, but that's really not a bad thing imo. I know this comment is going to rub some people the wrong way, but a simple WC is really not that difficult. If you think razing is OP, then why are you not also wanting to nerf all of the big nations with solid idea sets that also make WC easy? It's a sandbox game, WC is tedious and boring to do after a certain point. I don't see the issue with having razing enabling hordes to not westernize and WC.

And by boring and tedious to do, I'm not talking about the multitude of people who think they could easily do a WC or whatever because they get bored with the game by around the year 1500 because they think that being the biggest regional power means they can now WC and that there isn't anything that can break their empire in the future. People who have not actually WC'd don't really know what they're talking about in this regard.

 

[Edmon]

Now, don't exaggerate. He controls over 2% of global development. 507 in the screenshot, with global development starting at below 20k and probably having taken a hit due to his razing. Maybe even 3%!

My second think about it post got deleted, so since we don't do thinking about things, I will just tell you.

I have precisely the same number of provinces (including the ones I have in the current war) as ming starts the game with. Though I did take exploration and added a colony to get it precisely correct.

I just wanted to make sure that you could achieve the same amount as I've done infinitely faster by clicking Ming and pressing start.

Provinces where chosen for their geographical size to make the empire look as large as is humanly possible while remaining smaller than the games biggest start.

All the clues are there in the OP. I just thought another wave of "Horde Imba" would be especially amusing in this case and it was.

Them being fun to play remains true, however .

 

[Pornek]

Personally I think razing is overblown with how "OP" it is and that the community itself is causing this nerf by trying to rationalize that Razing breaks the game when it really doesn't. All razing does is provide another way to WC easily different than the traditional routes. In well run MP games it's not an issue, it doesn't make hordes super OP in the AI's hands, it doesn't break the game. Sure people can WC about as easily now as you could with the ottomans previously, but that's really not a bad thing imo. I know this comment is going to rub some people the wrong way, but a simple WC is really not that difficult. If you think razing is OP, then why are you not also wanting to nerf all of the big nations with solid idea sets that also make WC easy? It's a sandbox game, WC is tedious and boring to do after a certain point. I don't see the issue with having razing enabling hordes to not westernize and WC.

And by boring and tedious to do, I'm not talking about the multitude of people who think they could easily do a WC or whatever because they get bored with the game by around the year 1500 because they think that being the biggest regional power means they can now WC and that there isn't anything that can break their empire in the future. People who have not actually WC'd don't really know what they're talking about in this regard.

The biggest factor is mainly that most nations who can raze also have access to -core creation from NIs and obviously from ideagroups. Razing in a vacuum is not OP. Conquest which leads to a netgain of admin in addition to gaining dip and mil for free might be too strong though.

 

[Frogbait]

The biggest factor is mainly that most nations who can raze also have access to -core creation from NIs and obviously from ideagroups. Razing in a vacuum is not OP. Conquest which leads to a netgain of admin in addition to gaining dip and mil for free might be too strong though.

Honestly doesn't seem to me anymore strong then having western tech and -core cost reduction ideas. And factor in that alot of the nations that have those ideas start as western or can take the decision for a free westernization. I do get what you're saying in regards to the net gain, but all it ultimately does is make another tech group outside of western not have to really care about MP.

 

[ChildeR]

Provinces where chosen for their geographical size to make the empire look as large as is humanly possible while remaining smaller than the games biggest start.

That's nice and all, I just don't see what that has to do with "literally 1/4 of the planet".

Maybe some meme I'm unaware of? *shrug*

 

[bbqftw]

*Cough* Timurids *Cough*

They start with game with the 2nd highest developement, ~7th highest income, and THE highest forcelimit.

no RCC, terrible ideas, terrible leader and terrible heir in the only part of the game where leader actually matters.

Timurids aren't even a real horde, I'd even consider forming Mughals as them.

 

[Angeleyed]

Hordes will be nerfed, but they will be nerfed with an eye towards not ruining the fun people are having with them.

Yeah, while holding that nerfhammer you can say hello to Poland-Lithuania too.