Balance and Imbalances - An Alpha Dev Teaser

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Bugnr01

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So nukes will not be hisorical, whats about this idea to prevent a nukefest?

Whats about a steady (with each drop) increasing NU hit for the nuke useing Nation (especially democtraties could get problems by useing to many nukes)?
With that system it should be possible to end a war with some nukes but not to fight a nuke based war (without seeing major upriseings).
 
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ozmono2005

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So nukes will not be hisorical, whats about this idea to prevent a nukefest?

Whats about a steady (with each drop) increasing NU hit for the nuke useing Nation (especially democtraties could get problems by useing to many nukes)?
With that system it should be possible to end a war with some nukes but not to fight a nuke based war (without seeing major upriseings).
Haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if it's mentioned already but I think making nukes extremely time consuming to firstly acquire the knowledge to build and secondly to build would be ideal. So the idea that Sweeden could drop 20 or so wouldn't be an option. I think it should be difficult if not impossible even for the USA to produce that much by 45.
 
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agus92

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Neither.

The KV-2 is a heavy tank variant. No much heavier than KV-1 (equal to Tiger) nor heavily armored, the one feature was the big gun (which didn't quite work in a rotating turret as intended). It fills the same role as the IS series - a breakthrough heavy tank with powerful HE (IS-2 tanks did use their HE against fortifications in Prussia). Nothing "super-heavy" about it.
I checked and the speed is almost like the kv1, superior than what I thought. But it had 180 mm front, how's that not heavily armoured in 1939?
 

womble

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The Panther was the heaviest Medium tank: 45 tonne. It had excellent anti-armour performance, and its glacis was impenetrable to most Allied guns, but its flanks were vulnerable.
The Tiger I weighed 20% more
The Tiger II was pushing 70T
The JagdTiger (a Tiger II TD variant) added a couple of tonnes.
The Pershing weighed 46T and was consiered a heavy tank when designed. Its 90mm gun and superior all-round protection were closer to the Tiger than the Panther.
IS-2 weighed the same as the Pershing, had comparable protection and a bigger gun.

The Panther's relatively poor HE performance, and its relatively weak side armour make it a medium, especially for the purposes of HOI.

What also made the Panther a medium was its designed speed:

Panther: 55kmh
Tiger I: 45kmh
Tiger II: 42kmh
Pershing: 40kmh

The Churchill only weighed 39T but was very well protected and slow (24kmh) and so was a heavy tank in spite of not having a high velocity gun with a bore greater than 75mm (it partially made up for the lack of AP from the QF75 normal shot by using APDS rounds capable of defeating heavy armour).

The Pershing only got reclassified as a medium when the US fielded a heavier tank 10 years after WW2 ended.

It's entirely possible for a better design to achieve more protection per tonne of vehicle weight. The Tiger's slab sides weren't exactly subtle.
 
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D Inqu

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I checked and the speed is almost like the kv1, superior than what I thought. But it had 180 mm front, how's that not heavily armoured in 1939?
Ehm, where did you find that? The hull of the KV-2 was identical to KV-1 with 75mm, the trret was also 75mm. The gun mantlet was 110mm but that's not the same as "180mm front".
 

Mitsugi

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The Panther was the heaviest Medium tank: 45 tonne. It had excellent anti-armour performance, and its glacis was impenetrable to most Allied guns, but its flanks were vulnerable.
The Tiger I weighed 20% more
The Tiger II was pushing 70T
The JagdTiger (a Tiger II TD variant) added a couple of tonnes.
The Pershing weighed 46T and was consiered a heavy tank when designed. Its 90mm gun and superior all-round protection were closer to the Tiger than the Panther.
IS-2 weighed the same as the Pershing, had comparable protection and a bigger gun.
You're confusing the Pershing measured in US short tons with the Panther measured in metric tons. The Pershing is 41,900kg combat loaded, the Panther is 44,800. And good heavens, the IS-2 had way superior protection to any of the late-war overgrown mediums, not comparable to the Pershing.

The Pershing only got reclassified as a medium when the US fielded a heavier tank 10 years after WW2 ended.

Dude, the Pershing was out of service well before that date. It was withdrawn from Korea in 1951 and gone from Europe in '53. Its successor was declared obsolete in 1957. Not to mention that in 1950 the US Army reclassified all its tanks by gun caliber and not weight. The Pershing and Patton (until the much later 105mm versions) were officially "90mm gun tanks" from that day forward. They could not possibly have reclassified the Pershing as a medium tank in 1955 because the US Army in 1955 did not have "medium tank" as a classification any more than they still had Pershings.
 
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agus92

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Ehm, where did you find that? The hull of the KV-2 was identical to KV-1 with 75mm, the trret was also 75mm. The gun mantlet was 110mm but that's not the same as "180mm front".

I may or may not have read wrongly 180 instead of 110. Ups.
 

Aigars

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well this looks nice.
And from side nuke should be used not just diplomatically but as a way to force your will on enemy nation say you offer peace for 50% land loss, 80% industry, resources and forced to give up armor guns ect. If not well nuke a city or 2 to make em see light.
and if capital is nuked there should be very high chance that it kills most of government.
 

womble

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Still, the US considered the Pershing a heavy tank in WW2. As you say, classified by its gun, if not in comparison to other US armour. And it was still slower than the Panther, better armoured and armed than a Sherman. Even if it couldn't match KT and IS-2.

It's entirely possible to reclassify things that aren't still in use.

The point is that heavy tanks got used, and 80-plus Tonne SuperHeavies like the Tortoise, T-28, Maus et al. didn't make it into serial production worth considering on the grand strategic scale of HOI.

And the Panther was designed and used as a medium tank, and never armed with a gun big enough to call itself heavy, nor well-enough protected.

Should super heavy tanks be an option? Yes. But they should be extremely niche, and that niche shouldn't be artificially carved out by the devs. Make the constraints at least somewhat realistic and let players decide whether to bother researching them, if they think they can use them effectively, or just for the heck of it.
 
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InnocentIII

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Not according to Soviet Doctrine during the cold war.

Kissinger discussed (academically, not while in office) using atomic weapons in an airburst as a defensive tactic against incoming attack (non-fraternal fratricide) iirc.
 

Secret Master

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Super Heavy Armor are like Mountaineers, excel in smal number of situations. Some other units such as infantry and medium armor are generalist, they don't solve hard situations like Super Heavy Armor or Mounatineers but they are more flexible.

I disagree completely.

Mountain troops, both historically and in the game, are useful in a wide range of circumstances. In fact, they are even better than INF in certain categories in game terms, while losing out on the anti-tank capability (except for French and Italian elite units). If it was feasible from an IC and leadership standpoint, you could make entire armies composed of MTN (I've done it as China, except for garrison forces). It's the same with MAR. If cost wasn't a factor, it would be superior to plain infantry in 75% of situations, with the other 25% of situations covered by adding some AT, TD, or ARM. (I like giving the Marines their Shermans.)

Do keep in mind that in HOI3, MTN and MAR had terrain bonuses on several types of terrain. MTN have bonuses in woods, forests, hills, mountains, and arctic. MAR have bonuses to amphibious attacks, but also jungles, river crossings, and swamps.

In real life, the cost of creating, training, and equipping these special infantry types (along with the stricter requirements for recruits) limits their creation. But the limiting factor isn't that they suck in some situations. The limiting factor is cost. Remember: you can always add AT guns or tank destroyers to back them up in the event they come across tanks. (I do it sometimes as France. Good luck pushing through the Italian border with MTN/AT divisions holding the mountain passes. They eat Panthers for breakfast, then take a break for lunch with nothing left to do.)

SHARM have a much narrower field of application in both history and gameplay. The situations in which it makes sense to employ these tanks are few and far between. There are few offensive situations that favor their use. Due keep in mind that if you are thinking that you need the Maus to break pillboxes and fortifications, you are mistaken. The StuG III was great for doing that job, and cost a fraction of even a King Tiger. It was also useful in more than one role. And the Germans loved their StuGs. On defense, it can hold a position, but only so long as it isn't being bombed or overrun with infantry. And if you need to retreat or redeploy? Well, that's too bad. They are so slow that you are more or less committed to holding in place. Hope you brought a deck of cards; you're going to be defending that piece of terrain awhile.

This also even assumes you can supply, fuel, and keep them repaired. MTN may not be the easiest troops to train or equip, but they are more durable on a long campaign than SHARM.

From a game perspective, I can't see them being that useful in open terrain despite being a tank. They're too slow. I know they are, because I invaded Europe one time with an entire US Army composed of MAR/MAR/MAR/SHARM. It was ridiculous to watch my Marines standing around on smoke breaks while they waited on the slow SHARM to catch up. (Why did I even train my Marines to run three miles in 18 minutes if it takes the T-28 an hour to do it?) It was the slowest victory ever against the Axis powers. I could have been fiddling in Berlin months earlier if I had faster tanks. And SHARM wouldn't have helped Germany even the odds in this situation anyway; I had air superiority, so SHARM brigades would have just been big targets for my TACs. That's assuming I was fighting fair; if I was being a punk, I would have logistically bombed the SHARM and then laughed at them as I attacked them.

Super heavy tank would be Maus and the like. King Tiger is NOT super heavy. KV 2 even less.

I would agree with you, although I wonder if more reasonable designs like the E-75 will count as SHARM or HARM.
 
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Mitsugi

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Still, the US considered the Pershing a heavy tank in WW2. As you say, classified by its gun, if not in comparison to other US armour. And it was still slower than the Panther, better armoured and armed than a Sherman.
If the Pershing was a heavy tank because it was better armed and armored than its predecessor and yet slower than another medium tank, then the Panther was a heavy tank because it was better armed and armored than its predecessor and slower than, say, a Comet or T-44. That argument proves too much.

It's entirely possible to reclassify things that aren't still in use.
It is not possible to reclassify things into categories that aren't still in use. That's what it means when an organization stops using a category, they stop putting things in that category. It's just also that the M26 had been out of service for years.. All tanks in service were reclassified by gun caliber on 7 November 1950, there was no longer such a thing as a "medium tank" in the US Army. And oddly enough, the Pershing sat right in the middle, between the 76mm Gun Tank M41 and the 120mm Gun Tank T43 (later to become the M103).

And the Panther was designed and used as a medium tank, and never armed with a gun big enough to call itself heavy, nor well-enough protected.

As was the Pershing. The 1945 tank production plans called for the cessation of Sherman production except for 105mm howitzer tanks as assault guns. 75mm and 76mm Shermans were to be replaced by Pershings. It was not supposed to be deployed into separate heavy tank battalions like the Tiger or IS. It was supposed to be the new standard tank for the armored divisions, just like the Panther.

In real life, they were equivalents, and in HOI4 terms they differed in variant upgrades. The Panther is about one notch up on armor and engine, one down on gun, and one or two down on reliability, at least by late war.
 
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womble

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If the Pershing was a heavy tank because it was better armed and armored than its predecessor and yet slower than another medium tank, then the Panther was a heavy tank because it was better armed and armored than its predecessor and slower than, say, a Comet or T-44. That argument proves too much.
Nope. The US designed the Pershing as a heavy tank. That they were planning to replace all their tanks with heavies doesn't make their design a medium. It was "heavier" than the US medium tank. Whether it was heavier/slower/harder-hitting than any other tank was irrelevant.

Since only 20 M26 saw combat, they were hardly a replacement for the M4 in '45.

The side armour of the Pershing is a good bit better than the Panther's; as is the turret protection; the glacis is about the same. So its toughness and defensiveness are better than the Panther's as well. While it might have been more reliable than a Panther, the Army weren't happy with its mechanics. Its gun's SA is better than the anaemic performance of the Panther's, and its AP and HA are better. And the chassis was the basis for the Patton.

The outlier is the Panther: a medium tank, armed with a medium tank's gun, fast (when it ran, but that's a different story), fine against most things frontally, vulnerable to the flanks, deployed as a standard and called a "medium" by its creators, even though its mass was the same as some other nations' heavies (it was still lighter than German heavies).
 
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