I want to achieve a WC. I know this will involve BB wars. What I want to know is, if I force-vassalise a country and they are NOT in an alliance with me, will the DOW me during BB wars? Assume they are on the same continent, not already at war or -3 stability or something else that. Also, if they DOW me, that breaks the vassalisation, right?
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They will DoW you if you are NOT allied to them given the conditions you state. And yes that will of course break the vassalization.
Wow, that's harsh. Are there any good FAQs or threads on managing bb-wars and WC tactics in general?
I doubt. WCs in Very Hard/Furious is impossible. You will kept getting dowed until your BB gets under the BB limit. Not only you will be forced to mint, but you will also have lots of WE. You may manage to peace with some countries, but once the truce expires, they will re-DoW. its a nightmare. 
It's Very Hard, but not Furious as far as I know. Does this make a difference? Also, I thought BB wars had to happen to get a WC, because of the inevitable civil war hits if you have to keep DOW-ing other nations? *confused*
No. In fact, it's easier to achieve a WC in VH/Furious than in Hard/Coward.BurningEGO said:
Very Hard means the AI will DoW you, so no need to DoW yourself, in the BBWars. Also, it's reckless at DoWing you during BBWars, even if it's not to its advantage.
Furious means the AI'll fight mostly among each other during the first (and longest) part of the game, since presumably you're gonna be too strong for the AI soon. Ongoing and frequent wars mean that the AI'll be weaker.
We've recently had a discussion about Best DP-sliders for WC and general tips where I've been debating with Jomini and Isaac Brock about how to to a WC. I've presented what I deem is the easiest way to achieve a WC, provided you are already a good player (heck, I advise starting with Byzantium, and suppose a very good knowledge of the workings of BB and inflation).
Ambassador said:No. In fact, it's easier to achieve a WC in VH/Furious than in Hard/Coward.
Very Hard means the AI will DoW you, so no need to DoW yourself, in the BBWars. Also, it's reckless at DoWing you during BBWars, even if it's not to its advantage.
Furious means the AI'll fight mostly among each other during the first (and longest) part of the game, since presumably you're gonna be too strong for the AI soon. Ongoing and frequent wars mean that the AI'll be weaker.
We've recently had a discussion about Best DP-sliders for WC and general tips where I've been debating with Jomini and Isaac Brock about how to to a WC. I've presented what I deem is the easiest way to achieve a WC, provided you are already a good player (heck, I advise starting with Byzantium, and suppose a very good knowledge of the workings of BB and inflation).
That's good, I was just about to start crying. Thanks for the link, I have saved to read it later (when my boss isn't watching me...).
Ambassador said:
DISCLAIMER: I haven't done a WC under 1.09. Just older patches.
If it's your first try at WC I wouldn't advise trying the Byzantines and Ambassador's approach. I would suggest one of the easier majors that has good leaders, cultures and cores. I think France is the best choice, but Spain might be easier. England is OK if you prefer that - I prefer to have the land connections for conversion [edit, note disclaimer. ENG has a land conection in 1.09 right?]. But pick one of those three.
The easiest approach is the high tech WC. You will kick off the BB wars once you have a bunch of conscription centers and a monstrously huge army. That means that by the time you get the CCs (likely 1700) you want to have
-a very big base manpower. This means controlling all of your same culture provinces, and if possible other high manpower provinces in Europe. This also means Conscription Centers in most of your European provinces.
-lowish inflation. But by the time you can build CCs you've had governors for a long time, and they should be built everywhere.
-better tech than anyone else. This means that you need to have 5 merchants in every single COT in the world (you should get this by the mid-1500's at the latest), a great economy (infra and trade tech near the highest levels), own most of the gold provinces in the game (at a minimum all of the Aztecs, Incas and Chimu),and most of the COTs in the game.
-As much terroitory as possible while staying under the BB limit. This means you will want to have conquered ALL of the pagans before you cross the BB limit. This is best left until later because the pagan provinces cost you tech speed and stability cost.
-Boundaries that let you fight the BB wars the way you want to. Generally you're better off avoiding some areas to reduce the number of peace deals you have to make for a while. But China will take a lot of wars to reduce, so you need to border them. Anyone with a port in Europe will DOW so you'd like easy accesss to most of Europe. Other large countries need to be fought early, this could be Poland or Russia. Areas that can be left until later in the BB rounds include India, SE Asia, Indonesia, and maybe the Middle East. If you have boundaries where you don't want to fight, lose those provinces before you cross the BB limit. You also don't wnat to have to deal with large forts in colonies, so it's best to disrupt serious colonial attempts by rivals before you go BB. But you'll want wealthy colonies all over the world, just avoid boundaries that you don't need by losing some before you go BB.
-You want to have started work on eliminating at least one religion. Reformed is the easiest to get rid of, Protestantism and orthodox next. Islam has so many provinces that you will certainly be very tolerant of it while conquering the world.
-A huge army. Get a huge support limit and build until you're well over it before kicking off the BB wars. Have a general idea of how you'll fight every single BB opponent, and have enough troops to do everything you need, plus a reserve. However, when you go BB war exhaustion should obviously be at 0.
-As much territory as possible. It's stupid to kick of the BB wars when you aren't very close to the BB limit because you could have added a few more provinces without goign BB.
-Good allies. Basically these will be large powers that you don't want to fight yet, and who shield you from parts of the world that you want to postpone conquering. Austria, Poland, or Russia might be good choices depending on how the game plays out.
-Ideally you want to see England stay Catholic, and Russia contained so she doesn't expand orthodoxy and make you fight for the whole Siberian corridor. But these aren't as critical IMHO, English protestant colonial cities do hurt your stab costs after you take them, but you can postpone taking them and they do switch to your culture after 30 years, and even then are cheap to convert. Russia geenrally won't much fortify the corridor, so the only problem is getting large enough armies out there.
Kick of the BB wars by diplo-annexing a powerful vassal who has lots of provinces and a large army. Austria is often good for this if you're playing a western power.
But the most important thing is to manage BB very carefully. Assess every single DOW, and ask yourself if you really need to spend that BB point. Diplo-annex where possible. Don't take provinces in offensive wars unless they will really help you.
Good Luck
Isaac Brock said:
Thank you for the advice. It looks like I've made a reasonable start then. I'm France in the 1490's and I'm gradually taking over Italy and nudging into Iberia. Spain has formed without Aragon. I'm planning to DA Naples, Aragon and Papal states in that order. That will leave me pushed for BB limit, but I should also be able to DA Genoa without tipping over - I plan to release Kaffa as a vassal. Next target will be Venice. I will have to expand slowly to avoid BB wars, but that should help keep my tech moving along nicely.
By getting rid of other religions, you mean using Missionaries to convert provinces to the correct way of thinking, right?
Yes, or releasing them as vassals if it's really too problematic. But the latter isn't a long-term solution. It's the importance of being narrowminded, to get more missionaries.Mr Beer said:
Mr Beer said:
Consider postponing some of those DA for a little while and spending BB elsewhere. In particular a war with Spain around 1510 or so can be very profitable. The goals would be to take Toledo and Andalucia, and to get their maps. By 1505 they have oodles of explorers and will have very good maps. They won't have medium forts yet. And the COT and shipyard in Andalucia are very useful for you. Plus taking Toledo and Andalucia will cripple their colonial efforts. Not a bad way to spend 5 BB points (or less if you're lucky/clever).
Just a thought.
To add my own $0.02 ...
I have found WC to actually be easier when taking rather few provinces in the early game. Generally, the strategery I follow goes like this:
Phase I: 1419 - 1520
The primary goal here is to build up a solid territorial and economic base by conquering all state cultured provinces, at least one port, and at least one CoT. Secondary goals include conquering additional CoT's and gold mines if possible (target those that are not capital provinces), moving DP sliders to maximize the chances of getting a random explorer, reaching Naval 11, reaching Trade 3 and building a fleet of at least 17 ships.
Phase II: 1520 - 1620
By this point, you should be powerful enough to DoW Portugal, then Spain. The goal here is not to actually win something from them (although the CoT in Andalusia is a good target), but to sack their capitals, thereby obtaining their maps. Hit Portugal first, they're usually better explored than Spain. These maps ought to be enough to get you started in the colonizing game. Make sure to station troops in ToT provinces if you're Catholic, as you don't want to give Spain free colonies. Also note that buying maps will not help much, as you will not gain knowledge of uncolonized land provinces. With a bit of luck and a naval-oriented Land/Naval DP slider, you ought to get at least one random explorer during this phase. Here's where the 17-ship fleet comes in; using the naval reorganize exploit, you can send your explorer-led 17-ship fleet unlimited distances without stopping in port. (Purists would argue that this is cheating, so feel free to refrain from doing this, though not exploiting this loophole will make things a bit more difficult later on.)
Take out the Aztecs ASAP if Spain hasn't done so - the gold is handy, and the CoT in Zacatecas will, through your colonization efforts in America, become one of the richest in the world as the game progresses. Go Narrowminded to maximize Colonists, but not so Narrowminded that you're lagging in the tech race. A setting of 2-4 usually works for me. Colonize as much as you can, but don't blanket the continent with TP's. Concentrate on building 3-5 colonies at a time, promoting TC's, CJ, and governors when they reach 1000. Target provinces in descending order of tax base, paying no heed to how disjoint the colonies are. The goal here is to maximize income and return on investment, not create a map with pretty borders or color the continent monochromatically.
Secondary goal for this phase is to continue conquering non-capital CoTs as the opportunities present themselves. Take full advantage of the AIs tendency to embargo, as well as the Counter-Reformation, to get CBs when necessary. Generally speaking, no CoT is too far away. If you can take Malacca, Santal, or Shangai, go ahead and do it. Sack Lisbon every now and then to expand your maps if necessary.
Phase III: 1620 - 1700
By now your nation is the unquestioned sole superpower in the world. You may not be the largest nation, but you're certainly the wealthiest, and that's really all that matters. (OK, manpower is important, but given enough money you can easily defeat an AI nation with significantly greater manpower than you.) Time to flex those muscles by systematically force-vassalizing the four most powerful nations in Europe. Typically this ends up being England, Spain, France, and Austria, but your game may yield different results. Also, try to make sure you border all four of them, so you can pick and choose who you will DA to kick off the BB wars. Again, take advantage of embargos to get CBs, but don't be shy about DoWing without CB. Make sure to ally with all four of your vassals.
Secondary goal here is to mop up all the pagans. Not much reason to leave them alone at this point.
Phase IV: 1700 - 1820
Here's where the fun starts. Build up as large an army as you can afford, then DA one or two of your vassals (preferably the one(s) with the longest vassalization times) and sweat profusely as the DoWs roll in. Since the large, powerful nations are already under your thumb, you'll only be fighting the little guys. Even so, the first few rounds may be challenging. Keep annexing like mad, you'll find yourself assaulting your way through the Mideast and Asia in no time.
Granted, this template won't work very well for Far Eastern nations, and it does rely a bit upon getting a random explorer or two. Also, this strategery would fail miserably in earlier patches, as it does not place enough emphasis on converting provinces. The only times I've really failed with this plan have been while playing nations with rare state cultures.
I have found WC to actually be easier when taking rather few provinces in the early game. Generally, the strategery I follow goes like this:
Phase I: 1419 - 1520
The primary goal here is to build up a solid territorial and economic base by conquering all state cultured provinces, at least one port, and at least one CoT. Secondary goals include conquering additional CoT's and gold mines if possible (target those that are not capital provinces), moving DP sliders to maximize the chances of getting a random explorer, reaching Naval 11, reaching Trade 3 and building a fleet of at least 17 ships.
Phase II: 1520 - 1620
By this point, you should be powerful enough to DoW Portugal, then Spain. The goal here is not to actually win something from them (although the CoT in Andalusia is a good target), but to sack their capitals, thereby obtaining their maps. Hit Portugal first, they're usually better explored than Spain. These maps ought to be enough to get you started in the colonizing game. Make sure to station troops in ToT provinces if you're Catholic, as you don't want to give Spain free colonies. Also note that buying maps will not help much, as you will not gain knowledge of uncolonized land provinces. With a bit of luck and a naval-oriented Land/Naval DP slider, you ought to get at least one random explorer during this phase. Here's where the 17-ship fleet comes in; using the naval reorganize exploit, you can send your explorer-led 17-ship fleet unlimited distances without stopping in port. (Purists would argue that this is cheating, so feel free to refrain from doing this, though not exploiting this loophole will make things a bit more difficult later on.)
Take out the Aztecs ASAP if Spain hasn't done so - the gold is handy, and the CoT in Zacatecas will, through your colonization efforts in America, become one of the richest in the world as the game progresses. Go Narrowminded to maximize Colonists, but not so Narrowminded that you're lagging in the tech race. A setting of 2-4 usually works for me. Colonize as much as you can, but don't blanket the continent with TP's. Concentrate on building 3-5 colonies at a time, promoting TC's, CJ, and governors when they reach 1000. Target provinces in descending order of tax base, paying no heed to how disjoint the colonies are. The goal here is to maximize income and return on investment, not create a map with pretty borders or color the continent monochromatically.
Secondary goal for this phase is to continue conquering non-capital CoTs as the opportunities present themselves. Take full advantage of the AIs tendency to embargo, as well as the Counter-Reformation, to get CBs when necessary. Generally speaking, no CoT is too far away. If you can take Malacca, Santal, or Shangai, go ahead and do it. Sack Lisbon every now and then to expand your maps if necessary.
Phase III: 1620 - 1700
By now your nation is the unquestioned sole superpower in the world. You may not be the largest nation, but you're certainly the wealthiest, and that's really all that matters. (OK, manpower is important, but given enough money you can easily defeat an AI nation with significantly greater manpower than you.) Time to flex those muscles by systematically force-vassalizing the four most powerful nations in Europe. Typically this ends up being England, Spain, France, and Austria, but your game may yield different results. Also, try to make sure you border all four of them, so you can pick and choose who you will DA to kick off the BB wars. Again, take advantage of embargos to get CBs, but don't be shy about DoWing without CB. Make sure to ally with all four of your vassals.
Secondary goal here is to mop up all the pagans. Not much reason to leave them alone at this point.
Phase IV: 1700 - 1820
Here's where the fun starts. Build up as large an army as you can afford, then DA one or two of your vassals (preferably the one(s) with the longest vassalization times) and sweat profusely as the DoWs roll in.
Since the large, powerful nations are already under your thumb, you'll only be fighting the little guys. Even so, the first few rounds may be challenging. Keep annexing like mad, you'll find yourself assaulting your way through the Mideast and Asia in no time. Granted, this template won't work very well for Far Eastern nations, and it does rely a bit upon getting a random explorer or two. Also, this strategery would fail miserably in earlier patches, as it does not place enough emphasis on converting provinces. The only times I've really failed with this plan have been while playing nations with rare state cultures.