Babylon 5 civs

[Druesling]

I think the minbari should be some form of oligarchy, since the members of the grey council are somehow chosen without the real say of the people.

 

[Omegador]

If you like my analysis of B5 Civilizations, please like my comment!

YOUNGER RACES

Earth Alliance
https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/?version=1&name="Earth Alliance"&ethoses=2,6,9&government=14&traits=7,15,28

• Homeworld: Continental
• Government: Indirect Democracy (and Despotic Hegemony on one occasion)
• Ethos (normal): Xenophile, Militarist, Individualist (allows for diverse set of ethos via ethos drift)
  • Are open to being friends with other races
  • Have a strong military tradition and a vast fleet
  • Very diverse set of ethos

Spoiler: Clark's Regime

• Ethos (Clark's Regime): Xenophobe, Militarist, Collectivist
  • Hatred and fear of aliens
  • Night's watch and fascist collectivism

• Traits (on average): Industrious, Resilient (Earth-Minbari War), Weak
  • Numerous mining surveys, strong trade, etc.
  • Earth-Minbari war proved human resilience (even the Narn were sympathetic)
  • Physically weaker than most races

Minbari Federation
https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/?version=1&name="Minbari Federation"&ethoses=9,15&government=6&traits=5,13

• Homeworld: Arctic (mostly covered in ice)
• Government: Theocratic Oligarchy (Grey Council) and sometimes Divine Mandate (under Valen, Dukat, Delenn)
• De Facto allies/vassals of the Vorlons (perhaps Uplifted over 1000 years ago to fight Shadows?)
• Ethos: Fanatic Spiritualist, Militarist
  • They're deeply obsessed with their spirituality
  • They have a warrior caste and a proud warrior tradition
• Traits: Enduring, Quick Learners
  • They live very long lives (around 140-200 on average)
  • Traditionally don't kill other Minbari, likely because of low population growth.
  • Tend to learn alien languages extremely quickly (by simply hearing it spoken)
  • Are physically much stronger than humans, can survive multiple amputations and are difficult to bleed out.

Centauri Republic
https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/?version=1&name="Centauri Republic"&ethoses=1,9,13&government=4&traits=5,18,21

• Homeworld: Oceanic (few large landmasses)
• Government: Despotic Monarchy (Emperor)
• Ethos: Militarist, Materialist, Collectivists
  • Have imperial ambitions
  • Do not take their own gods seriously at all
  • Open to explore and trade with empires equal or more powerful than themselves (such as EA)
  • Are okay with slavery of their own and have the feudal collectivist mentality.
• Traits: Thrifty, Enduring, Decadent
  • Love money, material possessions, and a life of luxury
  • Live slightly longer than humans
  • Although they are lean, they are much stronger than humans in hand-to-hand combat.

Narn Regime
https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/?version=1&name="Narn Regime"&ethoses=8,14&government=5&traits=4,16,26

• Homeworld: Tropical (now a Desert, under restoration)
• Government: Military Junta (Kha'Ri), Peaceful Bureocracy (pre-Centauri invasion)
• Ethos: Fanatic Militarist (pre-Centauri invasion: Pacifist), Spiritualist
  • Vengeful and militaristic after Centauri invasion
  • Religious traditions and rituals (Book of G'Quan, etc)
• Traits: Conformists, Srong, Slow Learners (pre-Centauri invasion: just Agrarian)
  • Pressure for Narn to conform to the cultural norm (do plastic surgery to have nice spots, or risk becoming outcasts if they look abnormal)
  • Withstanded hundreds of years of genocide, slavery, and won a guerilla war.
  • Extreme physical strength
  • They were peaceful farmers before Centauri enslaved them.

FALLEN EMPIRES
Note: So these guys don't even fit standard definitions for Traits and Government types, but they have CLEARLY defined ethos.
Traits selected based on their ideologies.

Vorlons

• Homeworld: Gaian - a holy site
• Government: Stagnant Ascendancy
• Ethos: Fanatic Collectivist, Spiritualist
  • Order over Chaos, Greater Good over Selfishness
  • Are secretly gods to the young races; ascended energy beings.
• Traits: Natural Sociologists, Intelligent.
  • Experts at studying younger races, as they secretly created and bred telepaths to fight the shadows.
  • Excellent grasp of organic technology (living ships)
  • The only race to have true energy shields in the galaxy.
  • Pioneered wormhole tech that all the younger races use.

Shadows

• Homeworld: Tomb World
• Government: Stagnant Ascendancy
• Ethos: Fanatic Individualist, Materialist
  • Chaos over Order, Selfishness over the Greater Good.
  • Are against gods and spirituality. Amazing grasp of all technology.
• Traits: Natural Engineers, Intelligent.
  • Experts at sneaky galactic intrigue.
  • Excellent grasp of material science (shadow nanotech, nanoplagues, etc.)
  • Also have superb organic technology, infused with their nanotech.
  • Shadow FTL - unique form of transportation, allowing almost instant transition in and out of hyperspace.

Edit: Fixed wonky looking text.
Edit 2: Added homeworld types.
Edit 3: Updated some Ethos and Traits & changed homeworlds a bit.

1. Humans are now Weak, but still Resilient. Minbari and Centauri "Strong" traits removed, whilst the Narn keep theirs for being the strongest.
2. Minbari now correctly have "Venerable", in exchange for Slow Breeders and Sedentary negative traits (which suit them fine). I mean, they live for more than 500 years, which is insane compared to other races.
3. Centauri are now Enduring rather than Strong, as they do tend to live longer than Humans on average. Are now Militarist-Materialist-Collectivists rather than Militarist-Materialist-Xenophile, to reflect their feudalism and acceptance of slavery.
4. Narn are now Fanatic Militarists-Spiritualists instead of Collectivist-Militarists-Spiritualists. To simulate their conformism, I gave them "Conformists" trait as that suits them better, since they weren't actually Collectivist due to their wish for freedom from slavery. They are also Slow Learners, due to their historic lack of strong or well-known leaders, and inability to learn from past mistakes by starting more wars and provoking the Centauri. Narn homeworld is Tropical, not Jungle.
5. Vorlon Homeworld is definitely Gaian, whilst the Shadows homeworld is definitely a Tomb World (rather than Barren). Didn't know much about these at the time.

Edit 4: Changed Minbari from Venerable back to Enduring, Quick Learners.

Enjoy!

 

[REDDQ]

@Omegador
Great work!

 

[wildcard1985]

The Minbari are somewhere between a fallen empire and a regular empire.

I have heard that ai empires can become a fallen empire mid game, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Jamey]

No way. The Centauri maybe a power of the past (recent past) but they are way weaker then the Mimbari. More powerful the humans, yes, but Mimbari are at least 1000 years beyond all the other races.

The Centauri should have different mechanics than a Fallen Empire, which is why I described them as "Falling". They were somewhat recently a great power (though not in the realm of the Vorlons or Shadows), but they are falling from power and being eclipsed.

Unless something (i.e. a deal with the Shadows) occurs, they should be declining during the course of a game.

Only one third (even less so after Delenn) of the ruling council are from the religious caste. So net really theocratic.

I'd argue strongly that the Minbari as overall much more religiously oriented than anyone else. All of their leaders that we know of before the events of the show are religious leaders. Their government was created by Valen at the behest of the Vorlons. The Grey Council is religiously oriented, as shown in their beliefs resulting in the surrender to the Earth Alliance.

 

[Atlantians]

The Minbari Federation actually has a single leader who can override the Grey Council... but I honestly can't see what government they fit best with.

They are a Theocratic Oligarchy, since the founding of the Grey Council and the whole mythos of Valen is deeply spiritual and mystical.

Even the Warrior Caste is deeply spiritual, even if they are highly cynical of the Religious Caste.

 

[Fipse]

The Centauri should have different mechanics than a Fallen Empire, which is why I described them as "Falling". They were somewhat recently a great power (though not in the realm of the Vorlons or Shadows), but they are falling from power and being eclipsed.

In the context of the series they were still the second strongest power (after the Mimbari), even at the end of Season 5. They really got fucked when *Spoilers happening*.

 

[Tim_Ward]

Don't agree with the assignment of home-world types, they should all pretty much be continental. Otherwise, spot on.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

The Centauri are really no more than the 'most advanced' of the randomly distributed races at the start where the 'some advanced races' option has been selected for diversity. Their status as 'falling' from influence is really no greater than having their large narn-populated sector rebel for independence and then discover their economy is unbalanced because they've been relying on the mineral focus on Narn.

The Minbari should actually be a fallen empire.
- They were around for the first War of Shadows and were the most notable of the Vorlon's allies during that war.
- In the scope of the show they are undefeated in battle (the only Minbari ship we see destroyed by anything other than a Shadow is destroyed by another Minbari ship).
- Up until the point of the trigger for the Human-Minbari war they were entirely reclusive
- - even to the extent that in a flashback scene Londo explicitly mentions that the Minbari talk to noone, and that they would not provide any aid to the Humans for fear of the Minbari response
- The Minbari show no evidence of having developed any new technology for centuries up until the shadow war triggers the creation of the White Stars.

The only real thing that differs is their willingness after that point to talk to people.

If you were to represent them & the Shadows/Vorlons, it'd simply be a matter of giving the Shadows and Vorlons a slightly more built up area of space (or a modifier to better exploit a small area of space), while you give the Minbari a much less built up but larger area (why build more if your fleet is already adequate) but easier trigger conditions.

 

[WolfStark]

Having the Minbari as a Falle Empire doesn't make sense, since the Minbari are never depicted as isolated and stagnating. In the beginning of the show the Minbari are more like Vulcans, very advanced and at the same time rather hesistant in intervening but Delenn is not like Kosh and the Minbari are not like the Vorlons, they do interact with other civilizations, they trade all the time and share inner and outer conflicts apart from a late game crisis. Even the Human-Minbari conflict wasn't a result of "poking the Fallen Empire" but of a misunderstanding in the way the Minbari welcomed the human fleet. I think it's safe to say that without this incident Minbari and Earth would've interacted with another and not just by the Minbari saying "go away!", like a Fallen Empire would.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

Having the Minbari as a Falle Empire doesn't make sense, since the Minbari are never depicted as isolated and stagnating. In the beginning of the show the Minbari are more like Vulcans, very advanced and at the same time rather hesistant in intervening but Delenn is not like Kosh and the Minbari are not like the Vorlons, they do interact with other civilizations, they trade all the time and share inner and outer conflicts apart from a late game crisis. Even the Human-Minbari conflict wasn't a result of "poking the Fallen Empire" but of a misunderstanding in the way the Minbari welcomed the human fleet. I think it's safe to say that without this incident Minbari and Earth would've interacted with another and not just by the Minbari saying "go away!", like a Fallen Empire would.

Delenn literally says the words "our people have stagnated" when she talks about why she went through the change and about their theory that Minbari souls were being born into humanity and robbing the Minbari people of progressively more of their racial talent. "Each generation is less than the one before it."

In the flashback scenes to prior to the Earth-Minbari war Londo literally says right to their faces that the Minbari are isolated in their space and have little to do with outsiders. (And several Minbari warrior caste characters throughout the show voice questions as to the point of this continued interaction with the humans.)

The humans only met the Minbari because they decided to poke their space and explore, despite being expressly warned not to by the Centauri in the abovementioned scene. (Oh and the Minbari ship was only there to make the greeting because the Vorlons were directly meddling in their politics.)

There is no evidence of the Minbari trading with anyone, though in B5 (which is arguably after their triggered awakening) they do provide humanitarian relief to a few peoples.

The only conflict we're aware of in the last 1000 years prior to B5 (i.e. between the War of Shadows and the eventual Earth-Minbari war) is an oblique reference to the Centauri getting smacked on the nose for sending a small expeditionary force.

I don't know about you but that sounds like they were a Fallen Empire leading up to the show's timeline that is just now awakened.


Plus the Vorlons are arguably a hyper-fallen empire in the technological terms of reference used by Stellaris.

 

[WolfStark]

Of course the Minbari aren't a very progressive civilization, they were rather inclusive and they sure border a Fallen Empire but as said, the Vulcans weren't so much different, especially in the times they met the humans. T'Pol makes it more than once clear that her people tends not to interact too much with other species. Delenn said that each generation mecomes less than the one before but at the same time it was in the whole context of the minbari faith regarding souls with the soul hunter objecting to her words. The Minbari aren't Greys or Asgard who are unable to become children. An in regards to her change, Delenn also mentioned the wish to create a bond between their people. As advanced and reulctant to have meaningful interactions with other civilizations the Minbari are (one should not forget, they were the only one surviving the last Shadow War), I wouldn't count them as a Fallen Empire but more as an ordinary self-centered empire that is progessively opening up.

 

[Atlantians]

In game terms, the Minbari are essentially a Fallen Empire that can re-emerge.

Whereas the Vorlons and Shadows are practically more like end-game events than actual Empires.

 

[Fipse]

In game terms, the Minbari are essentially a Fallen Empire that can re-emerge.

Whereas the Vorlons and Shadows are practically more like end-game events than actual Empires.

But can you mod Fallen Empires so they have different technology level?

Also, I kinda doubt that Minbari had only little contact with other races before the Earth-Minbari war. They seem to fit into the Babylon 5 Multi-racial world way too easy.

 

[Atlantians]

But can you mod Fallen Empires so they have different technology level?

Also, I kinda doubt that Minbari had only little contact with other races before the Earth-Minbari war. They seem to fit into the Babylon 5 Multi-racial world way too easy.

Well, Fallen Empires used to be diplomatic players on the Galactic Scale. Then they just stopped and went isolationistic.

Like Ming or Japan. Just advanced.

 

[Fipse]

Well, Fallen Empires used to be diplomatic players on the Galactic Scale. Then they just stopped and went isolationistic.

Like Ming or Japan. Just advanced.

Well yes but on an actual gameplay Level, do all Fallen Empires have the same technology level? Because it would be weird if Minbari were as powerful as the First Ones

 

[MasterOfGrey]

Also, I kinda doubt that Minbari had only little contact with other races before the Earth-Minbari war. They seem to fit into the Babylon 5 Multi-racial world way too easy.

They also manage to end up in control of it all, which implies observation & manipulation more than contact with. Plus flashback scenes to the Earth-Minbari war show they have superlative intelligence gathering abilities (ambushing top secret meetings to buy weapons from the Narn) despite having to do it remotely.

Spoiler: The Alliance

The main political structure at the end of B5 is the alliance, who's headquarters are on Minbar and for whom the Minbari are clearly the dominant race. They have every minor world in known space as lesser partners in their 'Federation' and the main empires like Earth & Cantauri are all essentially 'paying tribute' in a diplomatic sense.

 

[Marcelo]

Aren't you forgetting the Dilgar? I wouldn't let such a key race out only because they were extinct in 2232.

Military Dictatorship maybe? Fanatic Militarist and Xenophobe?

Not nice guys

 

[Ajm5k6]

Aren't you forgetting the Dilgar? I wouldn't let such a key race out only because they were extinct in 2232.

The Dilgar would be very interesting. I think Marcelo is dead on with their description. They were brutal conquerors and developed a reputation for cruelty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilgar_War

I think if you were to make a B5 Mod then it would be easiest to pick a point in time in the Babylon 5 universe and go from there. So that you wouldn't have to account for or balance the governments changing. The middle of the Dilgar war would be a great place, all of the major races are there and if scripting and modding works the way I think/hope it does I think this universe would make for great source material.

 

[ikki]

The Minbari are somewhere between a fallen empire and a regular empire.

Technically speaking uplifted by the vorlons.. they rebelled, got their asses kicked and brainwashed into forgetting the whole rebellion