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Ols

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I don't understand this feeling of Aztec superiority. I grant that the Aztecs would crush European/Arabic peasant militia but Christian/Muslim knights would OBLITERATE the Aztecs. An army of half-naked infantry doesn't stand a chance against armored, horseback-mounted professionals. And all that not to mention horseback archers/javelineers of Iberia and the Maghreb.

Exactly what I was trying to express. A hardened Crusader wont get scared by seeing some men dressed as animals waving obsidian studded clubs around when he's seen plenty of bizzare stuff before. He'd also be wearing plated or chainmail armour, so obsidian is likely to shatter or do minimal damage when struck against it.
 

FabiusBile

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Exactly what I was trying to express. A hardened Crusader wont get scared by seeing some men dressed as animals waving obsidian studded clubs around when he's seen plenty of bizzare stuff before. He'd also be wearing plated or chainmail armour, so obsidian is likely to shatter or do minimal damage when struck against it.

Even if it shatters, you'll probably be unable to continue fighting. People always underestimate the bludgeoning power of deflected blows. Armour prevents you from dying, not much more. Even a well placed sword blow against someone in Armor can incapacitate a soldier. Penetration of armour is grossly "overrated" thanks to all this RPG stuff on the internet ;).

Not that it matters much, since there are about 1000 other reasons why the cortez and his troops did not wear their full armour during combat and switched to simple chainmail suits whenever possible.
 
Last edited:

NezzeOne

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Even if it shatters, you'll probably be unable to continue fighting. People always underestimate the bludgeoning power of deflected blows. Armour prevents you from dying, not much more. Even a well placed sword blow against someone in Armor can incapacitate a soldier. Penetration of armour is grossly "overrated" thanks to all this RPG stuff on the internet ;).

Not only that, but I imagine that the Aztecs would coerce European smiths to make metal weaponry/armor, if they -really- wanted to. It's not that hard to adapt to a situation if you overtake an entire nation by surprise, murder their king, and then enslave most of them.
 

Darkgamma

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Not only that - they created actual spears during the siege of Tenochtitlan, when they themselves were in the process of being annihilated.
 

The Dondarrion

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I don't understand this feeling of Aztec superiority. I grant that the Aztecs would crush European/Arabic peasant militia but Christian/Muslim knights would OBLITERATE the Aztecs. An army of half-naked infantry doesn't stand a chance against armored, horseback-mounted professionals. And all that not to mention horseback archers/javelineers of Iberia and the Maghreb.
1. They were not "half-naked". They wore quilted, hardened, layered cotton fiber armor. With technology similar to modern kevlar, even the Spaniards took to wearing it in lieu of their plate armor.
2. The atlatl dart throwers pierced plate armor at optimum range, further leading the Spaniards to abandon their cumbersome European armor.
3. Aztec military was also full of professionals, with ranks based partly on merit and veteran soldiers and commanders.

Yes, European weapons and tactics were in general more advanced than Aztec counterparts. But there would be no "obliteration". Cortes used his Diplomacy and Intrigue skills during the conquest more than his Martial skill. Even after the smallpox epidemic, it took 2 years and a Naval siege before the Aztec capital fell.
 

Federalist girl

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huh, I wasn't aware Europe had invented professional armies in the 11th century. Silly me, I guess a handful of knights wouldn't be overwhelmed by a bunch of Aztecs -- because it's not like Europeans ever had problems with other cultures possessing vast numerical superiority or anything. Those Zulus were such pushovers, after all.


If the Aztecs had come up with the engineering capacity to cross the Atlantic, I think they'd be able to come up with some decent siege weapons after seeing examples of them. And moreover, didn't one of the SI events mention the Aztecs using "lightning sticks" ? That's guns, people. Guns beat knights.
 

Grubnessul

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huh, I wasn't aware Europe had invented professional armies in the 11th century. Silly me, I guess a handful of knights wouldn't be overwhelmed by a bunch of Aztecs -- because it's not like Europeans ever had problems with other cultures possessing vast numerical superiority or anything. Those Zulus were such pushovers, after all.


If the Aztecs had come up with the engineering capacity to cross the Atlantic, I think they'd be able to come up with some decent siege weapons after seeing examples of them. And moreover, didn't one of the SI events mention the Aztecs using "lightning sticks" ? That's guns, people. Guns beat knights.
Guns don't kill knights, people kill knights!
 

unmerged(494787)

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The SI event mentions the Incas using "Thunder Sticks" and the Aztecs only holding them back with their newly-acquired Cavalry (and, presumably, metalsmithing/siege techniques). Still though, people don't give the Aztecs a lot of credit for their technology, which was really quite good - just somewhat lacking in metallurgical skills. With some luck, they could have beaten Cortez - or rather, less luck on his side. That said, it's not hard to code in an Aztec Cultural Building.

Code:
	ca_culture_mesoamerican_1 = {
		potential = {
			FROM = { culture_group = mesoamerican }
		}
		prerequisites = { ca_wall_2 }
		build_cost = 200
		build_time = 730
		light_infantry = 20
		heavy_infantry = 20
		light_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		heavy_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		ai_creation_factor = 101
		
		start = {
			AND = {
				year = 1066
				has_building = ca_barracks_1
			}
		}
	}
	ca_culture_mesoamerican_2 = {
		potential = {
			FROM = { culture_group = mesoamerican }
		}
		trigger = { TECH_CASTLE_CONSTRUCTION = 1 }
		upgrades_from = ca_culture_mesoamerican_1
		build_cost = 300
		build_time = 1095
		light_infantry = 30
		heavy_infantry = 30
		light_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		heavy_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		ai_creation_factor = 101
		
		start = {
			AND = {
				year = 1120
				has_building = ca_barracks_1
			}
		}
	}
	ca_culture_mesoamerican_3 = {
		potential = {
			FROM = { culture_group = mesoamerican }
		}
		trigger = { TECH_CASTLE_CONSTRUCTION = 2 }
		upgrades_from = ca_culture_mesoamerican_2
		build_cost = 400
		build_time = 2190
		light_infantry = 40
		heavy_infantry = 40
		light_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		heavy_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		ai_creation_factor = 101
		
		start = {
			AND = {
				year = 1183
				has_building = ca_barracks_1
			}
		}
	}
	ca_culture_mesoamerican_4 = {
		potential = {
			FROM = { culture_group = mesoamerican }
		}
		trigger = { TECH_CASTLE_CONSTRUCTION = 4 }
		upgrades_from = ca_culture_mesoamerican_3
		build_cost = 500
		build_time = 2190
		light_infantry = 50
		heavy_infantry = 50
		light_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		heavy_infantry_offensive = 0.075
		ai_creation_factor = 101
		
		start = {
			AND = {
				year = 1219
				has_building = ca_barracks_1
			}
		}
	}

Just drop this into 00_buildings.txt in the castle section. Buffs light infantry and heavy infantry in the same way as the Aztec Retinue, and provides some as well. I went with culture_group = mesoamerican, but you could replace that with culture = nahuatl if consistency with the Retinue matters to you.

You'll also need this dropped in a .csv in localization

Code:
ca_culture_mesoamerican_1;Small Jaguar Lodge;FRENCH;GERMAN;;SPANISH;;;;;;;;;x
ca_culture_mesoamerican_2;Medium Jaguar Lodge;FRENCH;GERMAN;;SPANISH;;;;;;;;;x
ca_culture_mesoamerican_3;Large Jaguar Lodge;FRENCH;GERMAN;;SPANISH;;;;;;;;;x
ca_culture_mesoamerican_4;Great Jaguar Lodge;FRENCH;GERMAN;;SPANISH;;;;;;;;;x

I didn't include french/german/spanish translations because I don't speak any of them well enough to be confident, but it's not hard to add.
 

kal56

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Cortez got his keister handed to him by the Tlaxcalan people whom he then allied with to campaign against the Aztecs. Corez's men were assisted by over 3000 Tlaxcalans for his campaigns.

This is mostly untrue. The Tlaxcala attacked Cortes with many times his number and the battle ended in basically a draw however the Tlaxcalans had lost great deal of men while Cortes had lost a few horses. After this the Tlaxcala decided Cortes was just what they were looking for to help them throw down Tenochtitlan. The problem the Tlaxcala had was that they couldn't break his line due to Spanish metal, Cortes could then use ranged weaponry to great effect on his foes back lines.
 

unmerged(494787)

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Ethiopia might disagree, as would China, Japan... the point is, however, the Europeans (as of Cortez) simply lacked the logistical ability to take and hold a densely populated area like the Americas pre-Columbus without a serious amount of luck without disease doing a lot of their legwork for them. Might it have happened later? Perhaps, or perhaps not.
 

psyghamn

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How about a cultural building that gives them extra light infantry and and big bonus to light infantry morale? This allow them to use LI as the main bulk of their armies more effectively.