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Artyom87

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so i tried aztec on ironman hard/ai bonus and everything was splendid until like 1496 when portugal DOW'ed me and the about 30k troops decimated me even when I defended the landing. Whats up with that?


another question, I switched to normal mode with no bonuses ironman and played with mongol khanate to try and get the great khan achiev. Everything is going ok but I have a few issues:
-was administration the best first pick?
-was changing from horde to monarchy wise? I mean I was ahead by a milestone in military tech anyways...
-wtf is up with these events like "administration failure"? I swear I must have gotten like 30 of those. Iam in about 1595 and iam still in admin tech level 7
-should I try to keep stability at 0? Thats what I do, but these events eat my admin score more than tech or ideas combined
-should I have westernized at about 1594? thats when I basically quit the game because I saw how many rebels are about to spawn
 

zodium

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Hordes aren't my cup of tea, but with the Aztecs you either win the initial battle for the seas and trash their main fleet, or you die. Any fleet with more than 2-3 transports needs to die, and die now.
 

Artyom87

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Hordes aren't my cup of tea, but with the Aztecs you either win the initial battle for the seas and trash their main fleet, or you die. Any fleet with more than 2-3 transports needs to die, and die now.
oh why didnt i think of that. So its the fleet I need to sink? Not the army i need to destroy?

edit: also do understand you are broke as hell with the aztecs. Like an army of 15 troops has all my income going despite me controlling 99% of central america
 

nicechinos

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Regarding the horde.
1. Admin is probably the best.
2. I'd say yes. I didn't try to play unreformed horde in 1.8 but I imagine that without foreign core recruitment it may be very challenging. Kazan reformed run was very smooth for me in 1.8.
3. Bad luck. Idea group events fire every 5 years and there are more than just Adm. Failure.
5. I'd say that is somewhat late. There are not many serious contenders for great Khan in the region, so you could do well with Muslim tech.
 

Artyom87

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Regarding the horde.
1. Admin is probably the best.
2. I'd say yes. I didn't try to play unreformed horde in 1.8 but I imagine that without foreign core recruitment it may be very challenging. Kazan reformed run was very smooth for me in 1.8.
3. Bad luck. Idea group events fire every 5 years and there are more than just Adm. Failure.
5. I'd say that is somewhat late. There are not many serious contenders for great Khan in the region, so you could do well with Muslim tech.

thanks!!!
i thought i should have done innovative though, since I barely anexed any province anyways and I had constant war exhaustion. It was all vassal feed. But the admin did help with mercs since thats all I use cuz low manpower

my question is, Muslim tech? I westernized to western. At least thats what its saying. basically I captured, but not controlled, novgorod, and it gave me option to westernize for 3200 points. It would be western tech right?
 

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Hordes aren't my cup of tea, but with the Aztecs you either win the initial battle for the seas and trash their main fleet, or you die. Any fleet with more than 2-3 transports needs to die, and die now.

This is the preferred method. It is technically possible to quickly Christianize and ally France or some such if you're lucky enough not to be attacked before switching, but that's a hell of an opening to leave open to chance in such a way especially when you don't have to do so.

As for hordes:

-was administration the best first pick?

I'm not sure. Reforming early is bad, but ADM first might not be. The reason that reforming early sucks for Mongolia is that until horde units fall off really hard around MIL 12, 4 pip infantry and 6 pip cavalry are going to be reasonably competitive, especially the cavalry. Mongolia reforms into Chinese tech unless you switch to Sunni (which is annoying to do as you have to dump Buddhist majority land), so there's no much rush as Chinese is 15% better but gets worse rulers. Horde LA sucks but your land isn't good anyway, so you're going to piggyback off looting Ming and trade for some time. Also, tribal conquest allows for 0 DIP vassal feeding without religious.

There is an idea group crunch here. Intolerance is very painful if you conquer a lot of off-religion you can't convert, so you want humanist or religious. But, you need another admin group to reform, and opening 2 admin groups is going to be draining. Alternative, you can forgo it all and grab aristocratic (more early cavalry power) or diplomatic (more vassal feeding per Ming war).

Mongolia does not have any special tolerance of heathens. As a result, humanist only gets you to +1 to +2 range (depending on legitimacy) if Buddhist. That's okay, but not worth an early investment you don't need. You need money too though and ADM doesn't get you that. I might actually suggest economic or innovative here. That crap clan council to the north has gold, so economic will help a bit with the inflation but also with manufactories. Innovative makes advisor costs less bad and also dovetails well with farming up army tradition, something you'll be doing often.

I haven't experimented with Mongolia TOO much in 1.8, mind you, but maybe this patch I'd open innovative or administrative (you don't pay to reinforce mercs more than the usual maintenance, so there's some benefit to this aspect of administrative too), full annex --> release the Sunni hordes into Buddhist (they'll take enforce heritage and some take religious first to ease some of your tolerance problems), force religion on your vassals to the East as you take them, and try to break Muscovy while still a horde. Nailing them while they're reeling from league wars or Commonwealth is probably a good time. Once you border LO or Sweden, reform the government and westernize. Alternatively, if it's taking too long just reform the government. Focus military so you can keep up in troop quality.

When vassal feeding Ming, you want to either make sure your vassals are Buddhist and stay that way, or that you go Confucian. You're not taking influence early here, so the extra +1 from religion is very helpful for annexing a big vassal. Make sure you loot Ming like crazy since the money really helps tough wars.

1.8 has some cheezy peezy potential that I haven't experimented with yet from Monglia's position, like tearing a vassal out of QQ or some such to get near Ottomans using support rebel CB, rival Muscovy and use that to get friendly status w/ Ottomans and bring them in on Muscovy. Persia's a good bet if it's after the time period they can convert to Shia, since they'll convert land for you and can be fed land you need later, and will let you core an adjacent province in Asia to eliminate the distance ally penalty. A similar technique might be useful to bring in Commonwealth on Muscovy, using one of the "Asian" guys near Georgia.
 

Artyom87

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This is the preferred method. It is technically possible to quickly Christianize and ally France or some such if you're lucky enough not to be attacked before switching, but that's a hell of an opening to leave open to chance in such a way especially when you don't have to do so.

As for hordes:



I'm not sure. Reforming early is bad, but ADM first might not be. The reason that reforming early sucks for Mongolia is that until horde units fall off really hard around MIL 12, 4 pip infantry and 6 pip cavalry are going to be reasonably competitive, especially the cavalry. Mongolia reforms into Chinese tech unless you switch to Sunni (which is annoying to do as you have to dump Buddhist majority land), so there's no much rush as Chinese is 15% better but gets worse rulers. Horde LA sucks but your land isn't good anyway, so you're going to piggyback off looting Ming and trade for some time. Also, tribal conquest allows for 0 DIP vassal feeding without religious.

There is an idea group crunch here. Intolerance is very painful if you conquer a lot of off-religion you can't convert, so you want humanist or religious. But, you need another admin group to reform, and opening 2 admin groups is going to be draining. Alternative, you can forgo it all and grab aristocratic (more early cavalry power) or diplomatic (more vassal feeding per Ming war).

Mongolia does not have any special tolerance of heathens. As a result, humanist only gets you to +1 to +2 range (depending on legitimacy) if Buddhist. That's okay, but not worth an early investment you don't need. You need money too though and ADM doesn't get you that. I might actually suggest economic or innovative here. That crap clan council to the north has gold, so economic will help a bit with the inflation but also with manufactories. Innovative makes advisor costs less bad and also dovetails well with farming up army tradition, something you'll be doing often.

I haven't experimented with Mongolia TOO much in 1.8, mind you, but maybe this patch I'd open innovative or administrative (you don't pay to reinforce mercs more than the usual maintenance, so there's some benefit to this aspect of administrative too), full annex --> release the Sunni hordes into Buddhist (they'll take enforce heritage and some take religious first to ease some of your tolerance problems), force religion on your vassals to the East as you take them, and try to break Muscovy while still a horde. Nailing them while they're reeling from league wars or Commonwealth is probably a good time. Once you border LO or Sweden, reform the government and westernize. Alternatively, if it's taking too long just reform the government. Focus military so you can keep up in troop quality.

When vassal feeding Ming, you want to either make sure your vassals are Buddhist and stay that way, or that you go Confucian. You're not taking influence early here, so the extra +1 from religion is very helpful for annexing a big vassal. Make sure you loot Ming like crazy since the money really helps tough wars.

1.8 has some cheezy peezy potential that I haven't experimented with yet from Monglia's position, like tearing a vassal out of QQ or some such to get near Ottomans using support rebel CB, rival Muscovy and use that to get friendly status w/ Ottomans and bring them in on Muscovy. Persia's a good bet if it's after the time period they can convert to Shia, since they'll convert land for you and can be fed land you need later, and will let you core an adjacent province in Asia to eliminate the distance ally penalty. A similar technique might be useful to bring in Commonwealth on Muscovy, using one of the "Asian" guys near Georgia.
very insightful. I think innovative would have been best. War exhaustion is a big pain, and the admin failures from administrative ate up at least few thousand adm points. I did win a few wars vs muscovy and I completely vassalized shun (northen state in china).

As for taking money from china or others, I dont understand this strategy. Going to war with china is a big drain on manpower and/or mercs and war exhaustion. And the money you could ever get would transfer into inflation. Therefore I never actually accept any money. I was sitting on 17% inflation and I think that was causing some of the events.

On a side note, if there were no events at all, positive or negative, I think I would had been 50-80 years ahead in admin tech. I mean cmon, its 1595 and iam adm tech lvl 7 and I annexed maybe like 3 provinces. And iam mil tech like 15, which is ahead most of europe
 

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As for taking money from china or others, I dont understand this strategy. Going to war with china is a big drain on manpower and/or mercs and war exhaustion. And the money you could ever get would transfer into inflation. Therefore I never actually accept any money. I was sitting on 17% inflation and I think that was causing some of the events.

I mean looting literally, not in peace deals. Hordes get double money from looting (IE 2x province base tax value rather than 1x). For a nation like Ming with lots of provinces at 7+ tax, you can make hundreds of ducats a year in looting alone. The link in my signature is a bit dated, but you can see a good example of it in episode 2 or 3. I was losing 10 ducats a month in maintenance against Ming + Korea combined running almost all mercs...and gaining money.

On a side note, if there were no events at all, positive or negative, I think I would had been 50-80 years ahead in admin tech. I mean cmon, its 1595 and iam adm tech lvl 7 and I annexed maybe like 3 provinces. And iam mil tech like 15, which is ahead most of europe

Let's say you have a 3 3 3 ruler and are MIL focused. 4 techs will cost a bit more than 4200. Full administrative will cost 2800. We're already at 7000 ADM. From 1444-1594 is 150 years, with 5 ADM/year you'll get 9000 ADM that way.

The problem is, you don't start with a 3 3 3 ruler, you start with a weaker ruler and heir. You have to eat -3 stab (roughly -300 ADM) just to break loose from Oirat, since hordes can't be marches for some unknown reason (maybe to nerf Mongolia). If you do reform, have another -5 stability. Unless your following rulers average better to compensate, or you can come up with advisors while still affording to defeat Ming and other hordes, if we also factor events and a little coring that doesn't sound so off to me.
 

zodium

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When I did Sunset Invasion, I don't think I even had an army for the first war with the West. There's basically no point unless you have RR to deal with because if they land an actual force, you'll be slaughtered.

Looting is basically a one weird trick that AIs hate. It's incredibly powerful. Turn on popup-pause for units arriving at destination province, declare on any large country you like, then start running around and farming their cash. Knowing how to use looting is the difference between France crushing you and being a piggybank you raid every few years. If you ever roll a five or six-star Maneuver general, grin wide.
 

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When I did Sunset Invasion, I don't think I even had an army for the first war with the West. There's basically no point unless you have RR to deal with because if they land an actual force, you'll be slaughtered.

Looting is basically a one weird trick that AIs hate. It's incredibly powerful. Turn on popup-pause for units arriving at destination province, declare on any large country you like, then start running around and farming their cash. Knowing how to use looting is the difference between France crushing you and being a piggybank you raid every few years. If you ever roll a five or six-star Maneuver general, grin wide.

You can stall an AI really hard with a 10-20 stack hiding 2 provinces away and assaulting any occupied province they move off of. If you do this while still holding the war goal you can salvage some stuff.

In my Creek LP I actually won a superiority war (IE actually took land) while still a native council vs England by deleting any stack they'd catch, scorching any province they sieged, and winning a battle or two with huge #'s over their CN. Using a navy is much, much preferred however.
 

zodium

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More importantly, using your navy is actually fun.
 

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so i tried aztec on ironman hard/ai bonus and everything was splendid until like 1496 when portugal DOW'ed me and the about 30k troops decimated me even when I defended the landing. Whats up with that?


another question, I switched to normal mode with no bonuses ironman and played with mongol khanate to try and get the great khan achiev. Everything is going ok but I have a few issues:
-was administration the best first pick?
-was changing from horde to monarchy wise? I mean I was ahead by a milestone in military tech anyways...
-wtf is up with these events like "administration failure"? I swear I must have gotten like 30 of those. Iam in about 1595 and iam still in admin tech level 7
-should I try to keep stability at 0? Thats what I do, but these events eat my admin score more than tech or ideas combined
-should I have westernized at about 1594? thats when I basically quit the game because I saw how many rebels are about to spawn

I didn't play Aztecs with new patch. Overall though, you'll need quite a lot of luck early. If you want to be gamey, a good way to get away easily is to rush for the Carribeans. If you have several islands and the AI DOWs you, it will ship troops to the islands (loads of men even if it's an undefended island) and siege it. Once occupied, transports will come to get the men, ships will go back homeland; in the mean time you'll just send a few men, assault and retreat on mainland. Then AI will move to another island, siege, occupy, go back mainland while you assault,... Perhaps it'll be more clever now but it used to be that way earlier. You can win a combat, but don't try unless you outnumber something like 8/1 with a clearly better general. This is especially true if you're yet to go through the few early mil tech that increase tactics while the AI did, which should be the way it is in 1496. At some point, you'll be able to get a white peace. Just make sure to not loose a fight because of superiority CB, and keep fleets at bay as much as possible; otherwise, there won't be only the cog fleet doing it's business but AI will also send its "real" warfleet. Then just get white peace.

The thing is, westernize early or die. If you westernize and quickly convert Christian, then you'll be done with sheer luck needed for the start.

As for hordes, basically, I would simply go on full conquest early on; use and abuse the awesome hordes CB; expansion as a horde is fast, and free of dip points while your neighbours aren't a threat in terms of technological advancement for a very long time. Admin is definately a good pick; I would probably have chosen something else as a first pick. Probably aristo to make early expansion easier, thus faster; later on the -10% teching as western makes catching up trivial coupled with the neighbour bonus.
 

zodium

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You don't need to Christianize, strictly speaking, but if the event still happens over and over, you obviously have to or you'll never finish. Once you've beaten their fleets once or twice, the threat never really becomes as big again, and when you have expanded your colonial range a bit, you can take the Azores from Portugal and move your main trading port there. That way, Spain and Portugal can never recover the power difference because the Sevilla node is their main source of power, which will help you gear up to do the same thing in the Channel.
 

TheMeInTeam

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You can avoid the event by attacking for a core and taking it to unlock westernization, or selling the colony you used to westernize to a vassal. Still, I only had it fire once when screwing around with a Cherokee --> CN game, so maybe it's weighted 10x but not spammed anymore or maybe I got really lucky there and only got a 10x weighted event draw once over many years.