Ayutthaya revised

[fredrikslicer]

The current ideas for Ayutthaya are less than thrilling they very poorly demonstrate the martial culture of the kingdom and some of them may have been able to accuratley reflect the history of the nation... if they had been better written.

Starting goverment
Feudal Monarchy (Representing the Mandala system part of me wonders if Mandala shouldnät be its own goverment)

Traditions
+1 Max promoted cultures (Unchanged)
+10% Infantry combat ability (Representing Thai martial culture)

Thai Dhammasattha (These documents remained the basis for thai society from the 13th to the 19th century)
Compolied by our first king king, Uthong, the Dhammasattha is a combination of existing thai traditions and hindu scriptures to become a corpus to guide people in both matters of law and ethics be they buddhist or hindu.
+1 Tolerance towards the true faith
+10% Religous Unity

White elephant (Revised) (I'm not sure how the one in the game turned into what it is when elephant warfare and the prestige of owning a white elephante was integral to much of the army and monarchy for the Thai)
This majestic being is one of the most prestigous symbol of the monarchs power and sense of justice among the Loas, Thai, Burmeese and Cambodians and off course because of our talents in procurring these animals we have been know to keep a white elephant from time to time.
+1 Prestige or +10% Cavalry combat ability

These two following are from the original and are very accurate

Corveé system (Unchanged)
+10% National manpower modifier

Phrai Luang (Unchanged)
-1 National revolt rist

Sangha Wats (The system Phrai Luang referenced did not include many of the Buddhist religous communities which became very important)
Many of the buddhist communities were excluded from the reforms of king Trailok and therefore acted as refuges for people who wanted to dedicate themselves to studies as well as inviting chinese scholars to their communities making themselves the center for Thai education.
-15% Advisor costs

First contact (Placing this and by default the ambitions as the last piece does limit the devlopments to the late 16th century but the diplomacy and mercenary aspect would be releveant for a very long time)
Ayutthaya was among the first nations in south east asia to meet and sign contracts with the european explorers futhermore unlike many nations that were overran or manipulated by the foreigners we have managed to play them against one another for our own benefit.
+1 Diplomatic reputation or +1 Diplomat

Ambitions:
-25% mercenary maintenance (Moved to coincide with first contact since the contact with Europeans brought mercanaries up to a new level in the kingdom in particular as riflemen and artillerists)

 

[SlowDuck]

Hey me and my buddy (he's Thai) also came up with a plan, here's what we came up with:

Overview for the uninformed:
Ayutthaya

Ayutthaya was one of the foremost powers in Southeast Asia, it’s only main military rival was the Kingdom of Burma under Taungoo, with other smaller rivalries towards the Vietnamese and the Sultanate of Malacca. Starting from the late 14th century, Ayutthaya began expanding significantly, growing to incorporate the majority of modern day Thailand, Laos and Cambodia as muang, or vassal states sworn directly to the King of Ayutthaya. Key military incursions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom#Conquests_and_expansion) include the conquest of Angkor, and subsequent subjugation of the Khmer state, subjugation of the Upper Chao Phraya Valley, which leads me to conclude that I believe Ayutthaya’s ideas should be very military-oriented. Furthermore, Ayutthaya was one of the wealthiest cities in the East during the sixteenth century, and fostered close ties with King Louis XIV of France, and French ambassadors often compared the city in size and wealth to Paris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom#Economic_development), and therefore should have maybe one or two trade/diplomatic ideas. This is a base idea fix for Ayutthaya that I came up with, although it may require modification for balance with other nations.​

Traditions: I (he) saw no need to modify the historically accurate +20% religious unity +1 max promoted cultures in the latest patch.

• “War Elephants”: +10% Cavalry Combat Ability

A large portion of Ayutthaya’s armies were the war elephants, specifically caught, trained and bred in the royal palace grounds. The office of Commander of the Royal Elephant Cavalry was one of the most prestigious military distinctions during the kingdom’s early years, with one commander even having enough power to usurp the crown. Elephants were used to demoralize and trample enemies on the battlefield, and was one of the iconic symbols of Ayutthayan pride.​

• “Import Tariffs”: +10% National Tax Modifier

Taxation of ships carrying goods into the city of Ayutthaya was very heavy, and a large amount of the early Ayutthayan economy was based on this taxation.​

• “Contact with the West”: +10% Institution Spread

Starting from 1511, Ayutthaya had entered diplomatic relations with the King of Portugal. In later years during the late seventeenth century, the court of King Narai was very close with that of King Louis XIV of France, which significantly increased technological development in the country.​

• “King Naresuan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naresuan)”: +1 Land Leader Maneuver

King Naresuan is one of modern-day Thailand’s legendary heroes, and reigned as King of Ayutthaya from 1590 until his death in 1605. His military campaigns and impressive guerrilla strategies allowed Thai troops to throw off Burmese invasion, despite being severely outnumbered. Later military leaders, including the modern fascist government of Field Marshal Pibulsongkram used his tactics to format a plan to invade neighbouring countries, or to protect against invading countries.​

• “Foreign Trade”: +10% Production Efficiency

Ayutthaya produced goods such as rice, sugar, hides and other key commodities valued by both European and Chinese traders. From the thirteenth to fifteenth century, significant rice cultivation took place, with larger farms, better irrigation and much more efficient production of goods to be consumed, taxed, or traded.​

• “Foreign Expertise”: +10% Infantry Combat Ability

Ayutthayan kings often employed foreign troops in their armies, ranging from Japanese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Thailand_relations#Japanese_community_in_Siam) bodyguards to Portuguese mercenary gunners. The variety of different never-before-seen troops gave Ayutthayan armies a significant advantage when it came to battle against neighbors. ​

• “Thai Nationalism”: +15% Army Morale

Throughout the entirety of Ayutthaya’s lifespan as a kingdom, patriotism was encouraged by the government, and even today in the modern era, the example of Ayutthaya is portrayed by nationalistic leaders as the key example of Thai pride.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaification)​

• Ambitions:
  • “The Mandala System”: -15% States Maintenence

The Mandala System kept the kingdom in place through the maintenance of various vassal cities, or muang, allowing the King of Ayutthaya easy control of trade and commerce in these cities.
​

What are your thoughts on our plan?​

 

[fredrikslicer]

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Traditions: I (he) saw no need to modify the historically accurate +20% religious unity +1 max promoted cultures in the latest patch.

I don't dispute this the Ayutthaya were possessed a large degree off synkretism and were quick to assimilate other peoples they were also very tribal and war like depending heavily on the infantries ability to fight exidingly well this was in fact the basis for the rise of the Thai to prominence if I am not mistaken

I also revised my own traditions to keep the +1 cultutres but I think I'm justified in relegating the religous unity to the first Idea

• “War Elephants”: +10% Cavalry Combat Ability

Think we have the same Idea here​

• “Import Tariffs”: +10% National Tax Modifier

Sensible but I went with the Thai Dhammasatth because it served as the basic document for law instituted by their very first king that lasted for centuries​

• “Contact with the West”: +10% Institution Spread

I can see it but the early contacts resulted in mercanaries not direct technological progress I do get the Idea but maybe it should be re-written a bit so that it falls after the 16th century​

• “King Naresuan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naresuan)”: +1 Land Leader Maneuver

Very valid but maybe a better name for it along with "Lesson of Naresuan" I stuck with the corvee system because it was a large societal switch but this is equally valid​

• “Foreign Trade”: +10% Production Efficiency

Yeah I can see why you would use this it makes sense​

• “Foreign Expertise”: +10% Infantry Combat Ability

The Sangha Wats had a similar effect really is a question of which you find more important​

• “Thai Nationalism”: +15% Army Morale

How did I miss this?​

• Ambitions:
  

  • “The Mandala System”: -15% States Maintenence

No just no the Mandala system was in place at the very begining of the 1400s if you want it in you should have it in the begining


Feel like a diplomatic Idea is needed to reflect the Thai kings expert playing of the european powers

Think my main problem with the Idea set is that almost all names are increadibly generic​

 

[AdmiralAqua]

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Feel like a diplomatic Idea is needed to reflect the Thai kings expert playing of the european powers

Quite true, I'll revisit this with @SlowDuck

Think my main problem with the Idea set is that almost all names are increadibly generic

Yep haha, I kinda of noticed this too. We went for more details on the historical facts, but kinda skipped out on thinking of good names

No just no the Mandala system was in place at the very begining of the 1400s if you want it in you should have it in the begining

Very true, should perhaps be adjusted to something else. Perhaps the later sacred 'Drinking the Water of Loyalty' ceremony in which vassal lords had to drink a sacred cup of holy water each year in the capital to reaffirm their loyalty to the monarch would be a more apt name.

 

[fredrikslicer]

Very true, should perhaps be adjusted to something else. Perhaps the later sacred 'Drinking the Water of Loyalty' ceremony in which vassal lords had to drink a sacred cup of holy water each year in the capital to reaffirm their loyalty to the monarch would be a more apt name.

Considering the upcoming changes perhaps the Mandala system should be its own goverment considering that it was the standard for south east asia

 

[AdmiralAqua]

Considering the upcoming changes perhaps the Mandala system should be its own goverment considering that it was the standard for south east asia

Very true. It would make for an interesting gameplay style, although it is quite complicated.

 

[fredrikslicer]

Very true. It would make for an interesting gameplay style, although it is quite complicated.

Out of curiosity what did you think of my setup? You showed up and asked me about yours so I think its only fair I get to ask about mine

 

[SlowDuck]

Out of curiosity what did you think of my setup? You showed up and asked me about yours so I think its only fair I get to ask about mine

I think that your ideas were good from a historical point of view, and some (like Sangha Wats) were also good from a balance point of view in my opinion. But I feel that while perhaps our ideas had uninspired names and were perhaps less representative of Thai history they worked better from a balance point of view, though they had a clear lack of diplomatic ideas, with our idea being that a formable 'Siam' Nation with diplomatic ideas would fill that void.

 

[fredrikslicer]

I think that your ideas were good from a historical point of view, and some (like Sangha Wats) were also good from a balance point of view in my opinion. But I feel that while perhaps our ideas had uninspired names and were perhaps less representative of Thai history they worked better from a balance point of view, though they had a clear lack of diplomatic ideas, with our idea being that a formable 'Siam' Nation with diplomatic ideas would fill that void.

Ok thanks for the feedback. Regardless of differences in our preferances I think your ideas a are a massive upgrade from what is currently in the game.

Also I noticed you are working on Khmer, so am I, and I look forward to see what you come up with