Axis powers far exceed the UK in naval production?

[Firekiller xxx]

In the recent live stream Germany is seen to start with 10 naval dockyards, if I am not mistaken. From previous gameplay(quill18) Italy is seen to have 11. While the UK starts with 19. Add in Japan, and British naval production is needless to say exceeded by a considerable percentage.

Now I am not critiquing the decision of potential rebalancing for gameplay, but merely wondering if this varies from how things were in reality/what potential changes this might have on ww2?

Also if countries are rebalanced for gameplay purposes between axis and allies, it is interesting to consider wether the countries should be balanced more historically(simply different allocations of starting factories) for the sandbox game mode, as then the axis-allies balance would no longer need to be maintained.

 

[Denkt]

UK do have a an advantage over Germany in that it have more coastal population and as you can only build dockyards in coastal provinces, UK have a higher potential in dockyards.
And why would UK have to do 1 vs 3, if you add in France and US, they will have a significant naval advantage over the axis powers.

 

[Firekiller xxx]

UK do have a an advantage over Germany in that it have more coastal population and as you can only build dockyards in coastal provinces, UK have a higher potential in dockyards.
And why would UK have to do 1 vs 3, if you add in France and US, they will have a significant naval advantage over the axis powers.

France tend to lose. US involvement is not guaranteed. Said alliances may not come to be in the sandbox game mode. I am asking how this relation in naval production capabilities relates to history. Italy and Japan have high coastal populations. If the UK has to divert much of its construction towards naval dockyards it will be completely incapable of waging a land war.

 

[3ishop]

UK did have to get a number of ships from the US via lendlease and did get ships from the Commonwealth as well, Canada was rather important for their destoryers weren't they?

Oh and that's just for build up, doesn't count the size of the existing fleets does it?

 

[Caesar15]

Why does Japan matter that much, it's not like they'll be sending ships to the UK.

 

[Midden]

Why does Japan matter that much, it's not like they'll be sending ships to the UK.

Umm in the demonstration game AI Japan did send 4 Divisions to Spain.... Looks like Japan AI likes to intervene in Europe.

 

[Caesar15]

Umm in the demonstration game AI Japan did send 4 Divisions to Spain.... Looks like Japan AI likes to intervene in Europe.

I think that will be fixed. Hopefully. I can't imagine the Yamato accepting Churchill's surrender USS Missouri style.

 

[Evan05]

UK do have a an advantage over Germany in that it have more coastal population and as you can only build dockyards in coastal provinces, UK have a higher potential in dockyards.
And why would UK have to do 1 vs 3, if you add in France and US, they will have a significant naval advantage over the axis powers.

Not to mention Japan is on the other side of the world, making it really just Italy and Germany against Britain. Also, I do believe Britain starts out with a larger navy then either Germany or Italy. And that's not taking into account France, the United States, Commonwealth nations, etc.

 

[Price21]

They can probably send 4 divisions to Spain a lot easier then a fleet which can deter Britain.

 

[Midden]

Interesting that UK's cruiser and battle wagon techs are shown to be behind Germany.

It probably doesn't make any difference in Game as a UK "smart gamer" won't build any of those types anyway because it starts with so many. Using all the ship yards to make more convoys and destroyers is a smart move.

Said player would probably concentrate research slots on Air / Land and leave the big gun Navy as it is.

 

[LordOfWar16]

You need to keep in mind that atleast germany pretty much as no navy to speak of. They dont even start with battleships or carriers at all. They pretty much need to build up their navy, while the UK already starts with quiet an big one. As you said, alliances arent pre determined since the game is more of an sandbox rather than being as railroaded as hoi III. It is not guaranteed that germany allies japan or maybe even italy. Italy actually has national focuses to ignore the germans and do their own thing. Germany on the other hand has options to do stuff with china rather than japan.

You can go very different routes, and if the UK player decides to sit on his 19 docks and dont expand at all it is his fault if at some point the axis overwhelm him. Overall, the UK has an colonial empire to outsource its factories outside of the range of axis bombers, which makes room for more docks.

The UK shouldnt be able to win against germany and italy and possibly japan without allies in the long run.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

There really is no need for the UK to start with all that WW1-era naval tech, though.

 

[adam_grif]

It's probably not such a concern as long as the UK starts with a very large fleet. A bit of a reality warp but probably ok for game balance, allowing the UK's navy to be overcome if they skimp on their own production.

 

[BBBD316]

I would assume that the NFs of Britain will boost the speed of research for the navy so they will scoot pst the Germanss anyway, like the Germans will get in front on armour in the early game.

Also remember these are the starting factories and dockyards, I would imagine that the UK could turn a number of civilian coastal factories to slipyards/dockyards. As in real life the dockyards of a place like Belfast went from producing ocean liners to war ships. The start of the game is just the starting point, the total full capability of the UK to move to naval production will be much higher than Germany. Especially given at the start the UK will have many more civilian factories compared to the Axis due to laws.

 

[Nicolas I]

Why does Japan matter that much, it's not like they'll be sending ships to the UK.

But they can sink more than a few RN ships in Asia, as they did historically ! Just have a look at the list below.

UK had to make choices about ships and fleets allocation between UK and surroundings, Atlantic, Mediterranean, Asia.

List of UK ships sunk by the Imperial Japanese Navy

Warships

• HMS Cicala
• HMS Cornwall: British heavy cruiser sunk 5 April 1942 by carrier based aircraft during the Indian Ocean raid.
• HMS Dorsetshire: British heavy cruiser sunk 5 April 1942 by carrier based aircraft during the Indian Ocean raid.
• HMS Dragonfly
• HMS Electra: British destroyer sunk 27 February 1942 by naval gun fire during the Battle of the Java Sea.
• HMS Encounter: British destroyer sunk 1 March 1942 by naval gunfire.
• HMS Exeter: British heavy cruiser sunk 1 March 1942 by naval gunfire and a torpedo from Japanese destroyer Ikazuchi during the Battle of Java Sea.
• HMS Grasshopper
• HMS Hermes: British aircraft carrier sunk 9 April 1942 by carrier-based aircraft during the Indian Ocean raid.
• HMS Hollyhock: British corvette sunk 9 April 1942 by carrier-based aircraft during the Indian Ocean raid.
• HMS Pathfinder:. British Destroyer sunk 11 February 1945 by aircraft off Ramree Island, Burma.
• HMS Peterel British gunboat sunk by naval gunfire at Shanghai 8 December 1941.
• HMS Porpoise: British Submarine sunk 1945 by aircraft possibly assisted by naval escorts.[1]
• HMS Prince of Wales: British battleship sunk 10 December 1941 by land based aircraft near Malaya.
• HMS Repulse: British battlecruiser sunk 10 December 1941 by land based aircraft near Malaya.
• HMS Scorpion British gunboat sunk 13 February 1942 by naval gunfire from light cruiser Yura and destroyers Fubuki and Asagiri.[2]
• HMS Stonehenge: British submarine, overdue and assumed mined 1944.
• HMS Stratagem: British submarine sunk 22 November 1944 by sub-chaser CH-35.[3]
• HMS Stronghold: British destroyer sunk 1942.
• HMS Tenedos: British destroyer sunk 5 April 1942 during the Indian Ocean raid.
• HMS Thanet: British destroyer sunk on 27 January 1942 by light cruiser Sendai and five destroyers.
• HMS Thracian: British destroyer badly damaged by bombing 16 December 1941 and scuttled. Later raised by the Japanese and put into service as PB-101.[4]

Auxiliaries

• HMS Li Wo British gunboat sunk 13 February 1942 by naval gunfire from light cruiser Yura and destroyers Fubuki and Asagiri.[2]
• HMS Mata Hari
• HMS St. Breok

 

[Vukodav]

Well, I think that is OK. 10 for Germany, 19 for UK. 11 for Italy looks a bit too much in comparison to Germany but OK I guess.

I can see how a combined Italian and German combined production can be greater than that of the UK. Germany in fact did have large naval construction capabilities - but it lacked the time and resources to build a huge Kriegsmarine. A battleship takes around 4 years to complete so it takes quite some time to build a large fleet. Remember, UK had most of its fleet from the WWI and some inter war ships (HMS Hood was a WWI ship and it was their pride and joy) while Germany had to start from scratch.

But given enough time and resources, yes, I think that Germany and Italy combined can outproduce the UK. I do not think that they can outnumber it in the scope of the game, as UK does not start without ships but with a biggest fleet in the world, but outproduce it, sure thing. It makes sense.

I do not know the time it would take. In HOI2 it was OK, realistic time for a construction of the ship. But what they did in HOI3 is not. They simply made ships twice as expensive while the time was reduced by half. Yes, IC/day ratio remained the same, but once the Soviet Union is defeated, Germany could create the whole Z plan in two years. It is moddable yes but the whole tech tree is constructed around that idea and it is a bit hard to change everything without effecting the balance of the game.

 

[Nicolas I]

Do remember that having the dockyards is not enough, you must have the resources to feed them to produce at full speed.

Given it's empire and access to resources, the UK will most certainly be able to produce at full speed, while for Germany and Italy they would have to slow down other types of productions in order to build many ships at full speed. That gives a significant advantage to UK in terms or ships production.

 

[BBBD316]

I am pretty sure that Italy will struggle to match the RN, at least with the AI in charge it will.

 

[Alias72]

UK did have to get a number of ships from the US via lendlease and did get ships from the Commonwealth as well, Canada was rather important for their destoryers weren't they?

Oh and that's just for build up, doesn't count the size of the existing fleets does it?

Destroyers, not so much. We could and did build a few but Canada's dockyards were never up to modern standards. What we did produce, and what made us so influential, was the massive quantities of transports and corvettes. Many people don't realize it was the corvette, not the destroyer, that was the primary weapon against submarines.

 

[Axe99]

This is an interesting topic . The naval factories should reflect the naval units (represented in game, so nothing 'below' a DD or SS) being built by those nations at the time. While the UK had huge ship-building potential, it didn't get going until 1937 (when it laid down 5 BBs and 4 CVs, and a bunch of smaller ships) - so the questions should be:

- Can the UK quickly convert/get through NF naval factories to boost it's production when war looks more likely (ie, a 'modernise the fleet' NF, unlocked after WT hits a threshold), or is it possible to do at that pace through normal gameplay?
- What did Germany, the UK and Italy actually build in 1936?

I can't answer the first question, but I can answer the second (mid-way means they should be in the build-queue at start March '36, some to launch that year, some in '37. Note capital ships are finished when commissioned, but I only have 'launched' dates for DDs and smaller, so using them, rather than Wiki-ing every ship and spending all afternoon on this post - should give a good-enough rough guide):

UK:
- Was mid-way through one CV (Ark Royal)
- Mid-way through nine CLs (Aurora, Penelope, Perth, Birmingham, Glasgow, Newcastle, Sheffield, Southampton, Liverpool) and started another four (Gloucester, Manchester, Belfast, Edinburgh)
- Mid-way through 16 DDs (G, H and I class - Hasty, Havock, Hereward, Hero, Hotspur, Hyperion, Icarus, Ilex, Imogen, Imperial, Impulsive, Intrepid, Isis, Ivanhoe, Hardy, Inglefield) and started another 16 or so (Tribal class - Afridi, Ashanti, Bedouin, Cossack, Eskimo, Gurkha, Maori, Mashona, Matabele, Mohawk, Nubian, Punjabi, Sikh, Somali, Tartar, Zulu - I don't have laid down dates, but all launched in '37 and the UK tended to take more than 12 months to finish a DD, particularly pre-war)
- Mid-way through two SS (Spearfish, Sunfish) and laid down at least two (Sterlet, Triton)

Germany:
- Mid-way through two BCs (Scharnhorst, Gneisenau)
- Started two BBs (Bismarck, Tirpitz)
- Started one CV (Graf Zeppelin - just, but it was laid down on the 28th of the 12th, 1936)
- Mid-way through one CA (Admiral Hipper) and started three CAs (Blucher, Seydlitz, Lutzow)
- Mid-way through 12 DDs (Z5-Z16), started about three DDs (Z17-Z19)
- My SS numbers are a bit ropey (I don't have clear details on years, just ranges), but hopefully a decent estimate. Mid way through fourteen SS (U25, U26, U18-24, U27-31).

Italy:
- Mid-way through two BBs (Littorio, Vittorio Veneto)
- Mid-way through two CLs (Luigi di Savoia Duca Degli Abruzzi, Giueseppe Garibaldi)
- Mid-way through four DDs (Vittorio Alfieri, Giosue Carducci, Vincenzo Gioberti, Alfredo Oriani)
- Started two SS (Foca, Zoea).

From all of this, my thoughts (rough, just my 2 cents, to add to the convo):
- In 1936, Germany should probably be a little closer to the UK than 19 to 11, as BBs and BCs are expensive. However, the UK should have the capacity to expand it's capacity substantially in 1937 (when it was still building large numbers of CLs and DDs, started building new subs and laid down nine capital ships). Once the UK got going, it built a lot of ships. Not as many as the US over 1936-48, but no-one else came close.
- Giving Italy near the same amount of dockyard capacity as Germany in '36 seems a bit off. I'm putting together some stats, but only just finished the UK (sooooo many ships, soooo many classes.....), so don't have a feel for Italy. Germany built so few ships outside of U-boats after its 1936-37 splurge that it's easy to see what happened for them though.

On the tech front, though, I'm not up-to-speed on the various strengths and weaknesses, but I've never really got the impression Germany was ahead on naval tech outside of u-boats.