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Jun 25, 2004
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Sinkaing was trying to break away that's granted, but Tibet had been independant from China for millenia by the World War. Actually I don't really think that Tibet should be wrapped up in the whole Chinese factionalism affair as it was historicly minimally involved in the Chinese civil war, the Chinese factions didn't have much interest in it at this point.

Tibet was only occupied by China beacause when a Communist uprising siezed power in Tibet (with the backing of China) they then found themselves unable to maintain control and were more or less overthrown by a counter-uprising. At which point Mao and his Chinese invade in support of their Tibetan "comrades" and took the whole place over (as that was the only way they could render Tibet "stable" for communism.
 

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GoblinCookie said:
Tibet and Sinkaing aren't warlords they're "nations!!!


Whatever, that dosnt really answer my question now dose it? i dont care what they hell you consider either of these two places, in game terms or real life, im just wondering why yunnan was never conquered?
 

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Congratulations on being showcased, Gjerg! And what could be a better way to show that off than with the first large victory over the Japanese? Is the loss of nine divisions a serious blow to the Japanese war effort or do they have many more?
 

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GoblinCookie said:
Tibet and Sinkaing aren't warlords they're "nations"!!! But then again I guess from a Chinese perspective everyone than isn't part of the great Chin Empire is a warlord. :rofl:. I'll just go and take out the "Warlord of Britain" then. :rofl: :rofl:

Tibet and Sinkiang are no different in circumstance than the relationship between Confederacy and Union, for all intents and purposes.
 

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Mike von Bek said:
Hurrah! Run those Japanese dogs into the sea!

Well, we have a won a great battle but the war is far from over.

anonymous4401 said:
Cool!

The united front is united, for now at least. Are you milconning the Chinese minors?
Only the Communists and Xibei San Ma. The others are too far away from the fighting to be of use.

kuomintang said:
where do you get all those nice pics? I need more pictures on the sino-japanese war I'm scanning a 1000-page photo book in the meantime

Oh, I used roughly 4 main sites. One was called information war. I'll have to dig up the adresses, but don't don't have them at the moment.

biffthewhite said:
Why is it you never took out the Yunnan warlord? I usually cruch all the warlords and the commies, and leave the western warlords alone (xibeisan ma, sinkiang and tibet), then focus on japan. What was it that kept you from taking them over too, even a small force could do it?

A couple of reasons.

The main one is dissent. I spent the first few clicks getting the Standing Army slider to the point where I could start upgrading troops, so I got a lot of dissent because I didn't touch intervention or Autocracy.

Second reason is terrain. Yunnan is pretty mountainous. It would take a long time to conquer with my initially worthless infantry, and I couldn't be sure

The other thing is that I didn't need to. I developed a devious strategy for destroying the warlords. With hindsight, I could have been even more devious and applied it to Tibet, but its too late now.

4th reason is that because I was new to 1.2, it took me a while to get used to fighting and took longer to take down Guangxi and Shanxi, so didn't want to risk war.

GoblinCookie said:
Tibet and Sinkaing aren't warlords they're "nations!!!
Sinkaing was trying to break away that's granted, but Tibet had been independant from China for millenia by the World War. Actually I don't really think that Tibet should be wrapped up in the whole Chinese factionalism affair as it was historicly minimally involved in the Chinese civil war, the Chinese factions didn't have much interest in it at this point.

Well, The Republic of East Turkestan in Xingjang (Sinkiang) was not supported by everyone. The most powerful warlord, Sheng Shicai, supported the Communists first and then the Nationalists later on.

As for Tibet, I have cores on them. Is that enough info in regards to future Chinese Policy? They weren't involved in the civil war, in game or in real life.

But they hadn't been independent for millennia in the 1930s. The Qian Long Emperor conquered Tibet in the 1790s, but I forget exactly when they broke away from Qing control.

ptan54 said:
Not according to the rulers of China they aren't. Just petty warlords attempting to break away.....

They will not succeed!

Stuyvesant said:
Congratulations on being showcased, Gjerg! And what could be a better way to show that off than with the first large victory over the Japanese? Is the loss of nine divisions a serious blow to the Japanese war effort or do they have many more?

Thanks Stuyvesant. At this stage the Japanese had about 100 divisions fighting in China so 9 divisions is a significant loss to them.
 

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Attack of the Rising Sun: Counterattack

The surrender of 9 divisions was a serious setback for the Japanese, although IJA high command quickly reinforced the Kwantung Army with fresh conscripts from Japan. It is true that the victory had invigorated United Front forces, who now fought longer and harder than before. It must also be said that the training of Nationalist forces by the German military mission in German theories of trench warfare played a very large role in the Chinese victory at Yucheng. In particular the successful adaptation of the concept of “Elastic Defence” meant that Chinese forces took less casualties in defending the trenches of surrounding Yucheng, withdrawing when necessary and counterattacking after the Japanese lost momentum.

On September 4th, with Yucheng defended and Qingdao recaptured, the opportunity arose to not just halt the Japanese advance but push them back. On the choice of the counterattack, some commanders disagreed. Ma Hung Kuei favoured an assault from Inner Mongolia against Japanese positions at Erenhot. As the weakest member of the United Front actually contributing combat troops, Xibei San Ma’s position was threatened the continued Japanese presence. The Communists, and indeed Von Falkenhausen, preferred small scale guerrilla attacks to weaken Japanese strength rather than large scale offensives. Left unsaid in this strategy was that the Communists were gaining in strength in many areas, and recruiting many more peasants to their dreams. The numbers of troops commanded by the Communists had increased dramatically since the Xi’an incident, and numbered in the hundreds of thousands. Chiang, still aware that his armies were not fully reinforced and still lacking needed equipment, initially favoured a waiting strategy. Eventually, on the advice of his Guangxi war ministers who suspected prolonged would weaken, rather than strengthen the Guomindang armies, Chiang ordered an assault upon Tianjin within the next three days. Unwilling to be seen as not doing enough to fight the Japanese, Mao agreed that Zhu De’s troops would aid in the assault. Ma Hung Kuei was displeased, but agreed to contribute necessary forces. Von Falkenhausen was given overall command.

The assault began on schedule, thought not without a setback after the Kwantung army succeeded in dislodging the Nationalist forces preparing for the offensive in Baoding. These forces proved unnecessary for victory however, as a coordinated assault from forces stationed in Beiping and Shijiazuang as well as the veterans of Yucheng succeeded in capturing Tianjin despite heavy bombardment from the Japanese Navy. The Japanese forces defending Tianjin had suffered significant losses in the battle for Yucheng, and were forced to retreat from Chinese forces.

sac12.jpg

Von Falkenhausen leads the way at Tianjin

Despite the disparate elements of the forces he commanded, Von Falkenhausen showed he could coordinate large forces effectively. By September 9th, Chinese forces were well established in Tianjin.

sac13.jpg

Tianjin is taken

The first steps had been made towards the North. Further offensives would recapture Kalgan from Japanese forces by the 12th. In part due to Ma Hung Kuei’s pleading, Chiang decided to launch a general offensive North of Beijing. Under the codename of Autumn wind, Chinese forces simultaneously attacked Changde and Erenhot.

sac14.jpg

Autumn Wind- liberating the North: note troops commanded limits

Autumn Wind was a bloody disaster. First of all, the Japanese managed to launch a pre-emptive strike against Kalgan, disrupting control of the hard won city. Japanese defensive preparations were also far more effective than the previous efforts. In a far cry from the capture of the relatively poorly fortified cities of Tianjin and Qingdao, the previous frontier between China and the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo was heavily fortified with trenches, Nambo Machine guns and artillery, both heavy and light. Casualties numbered in the tens of thousands, the majority of them Chinese.

zhouwenhai.jpg

Private Zhou Wen Hai: One of the fallen

With Autumn bringing colder weather, the chances of a breakthrough looked grim.
 
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cthulhu

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Great AAR! :) Too bad Autumn Wind was a costly failure but you're doing magnificently overall.

Btw, how do you create those nifty attack arrows in the map?
 

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It must have been a real shock for the Japanese to lose not just their Yucheng pocket, but also Kaigan. But with the bloody defeat of Autumn Wind, I hope you'll be able to hold on to your new conquests. And hopefully it won't be too long before you can take to the offensive again. :)
 
Jun 25, 2004
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Could the Japenese use their superior industral capacity to beat you in a battle of attrition Gjerg). As for Tibet, yes the Quing did hold it briefly, but more as a puppet state than as part of China and it was technicly still independant. The British invaded Tibet at one point too. I don't think any of the Chinese factions should have a claim on Tibet as they weren't very interested in Tibet during the WW2 era.
 

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Japan beat China in a war of attrition? you must be joking.
With all the forces ofthe united front, it is only a matter of time before Japan is beaten.
Tibet is a nation that the goumingdang can choose to conquer at anytime it wants to in this game, at ltes just leave it at that
 

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They're pretty nice, all right. I think there's a link to download them on some thread in the GD forum. Something about new graphics.
 

ptan54

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I wouldnt be interested in Tibet either if I had other warlords to deal with. Once they were done, I'd reassert control over it immediately. Mao did that in real life, and Chiang Kai Shek would have done so had he won the Civil War. A look at any ROC map would inform you that it considered Tibet as part of the ROC (and Outer Mongolia as well - they're even more "greedy" than the PRC). Whether or not the Qing made it a vassal or annexed it outright is totally irrelevant. Both the ROC and the PRC viewed it as part of China, and that's all that matters.
 

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Ah, cruel defeat... damn the Japanese! They might not survive a war of attrition, but then again - the nationalists cant afford one what with those damn commies growing in strength every day - the Japs are just a petty nuisance, the commies are the real danger!
 

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cthulhu said:
Great AAR! :) Too bad Autumn Wind was a costly failure but you're doing magnificently overall.

Btw, how do you create those nifty attack arrows in the map?

Thank you oh Dark One. We aren't really doing magnificently. Petermeter is doing much better in his AAR, although we're playing at a harder difficulty level.

As for the arrows, I downloaded them from a website on the Korean war and pasted them onto screenshots using photoshop. I think they were McArthur landing at Inchon initially.

ptan54 said:
Time to dig in and construct some real infantry. Militia isn't going to be much use.

I agree that militia is useless. But there's no need to dig in. We have sufficient troops and land doctrines to defeat the Japanese, its just a question of using them more effectively.

Stuyvesant said:
It must have been a real shock for the Japanese to lose not just their Yucheng pocket, but also Kaigan. But with the bloody defeat of Autumn Wind, I hope you'll be able to hold on to your new conquests. And hopefully it won't be too long before you can take to the offensive again.
Well, the AI didn't reinforce the landing zone enough. And we went on the offiensive again a few weaks later. Lots of org lost, but strength loss was spread over many units so it wasn't too bad.

GoblinCookie said:
Could the Japenese use their superior industral capacity to beat you in a battle of attrition Gjerg?.

Theoretically yes. In game no. As for Tibet- I'm sure that when the war is over, some pressing need will present itself for intervention in Tibetan politics.

In reality, the Nationalists won one really big victory over the Japanese in 1938 at Taierzuang. They defeated tens of thousands of Japanese, but weren't able to follow it up with a peace deal. Later on, the early vigour wasted away, and corruption and disputes with the Communists and the Warlords basically meant the Nationalist army got worse and worse as time went on. I don't intend to make the same mistakes as Chiang- strike while the Iron is Hot.

biffthewhite said:
Japan beat China in a war of attrition? you must be joking.
With all the forces ofthe united front, it is only a matter of time before Japan is beaten. Tibet is a nation that the goumingdang can choose to conquer at anytime it wants to in this game, at ltes just leave it at that

Yes, only a matter of time. But we can string it out a bit longer for suspense puposes.

:)

As for Tibet, yes.

kuomintang said:
how do you get those nifty soldier icons? They look nice!

They're the Stony Road graphics pack. Look in the scenario modifications forum under Stony Road. They are very nice, but they mean the scenario takes ages to load due to masses of country specific graphics.

anonymous4401 said:
They're pretty nice, all right. I think there's a link to download them on some thread in the GD forum. Something about new graphics.
Yes Stony Road.

ptan54 said:
I wouldnt be interested in Tibet either if I had other warlords to deal with. Once they were done, I'd reassert control over it immediately. Mao did that in real life, and Chiang Kai Shek would have done so had he won the Civil War. A look at any ROC map would inform you that it considered Tibet as part of the ROC (and Outer Mongolia as well - they're even more "greedy" than the PRC). Whether or not the Qing made it a vassal or annexed it outright is totally irrelevant. Both the ROC and the PRC viewed it as part of China, and that's all that matters.

Greedy? Are you saying that once the war against Japan is won that the Guomindang will engage in the conquest of neighbouring areas once a hypothetical civil war is won? I am shocked! :eek:

Any expansion will be totally errr.... justified. Yes. :D

Mike von Bek said:
Ah, cruel defeat... damn the Japanese! They might not survive a war of attrition, but then again - the nationalists cant afford one what with those damn commies growing in strength every day - the Japs are just a petty nuisance, the commies are the real danger!

Indeed- the enemy within is growing stronger every day. On Hard, the AI production bonus means the Communists and warlords produce a fair amount of troops. We've got to end the war soon.

Hungarian Lord said:
Nice AAR so far. I hope you can defeat Japan

Thanks Hungarian Lord. We can.
 
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Attack of the Rising Sun: Unstable Foundations

"If when I die, I am still a dictator, I will certainly go down into the oblivion of all dictators. If, on the other hand, I succeed in establishing a truly stable foundation for a democratic government, I will live forever in every home in China."
Chiang Kai Shek

Before examining the fallout from the failed offensive, the political situation which arose from the formation of the United Front must be examined. In many ways, the republican institutions of the Republic of China, which had become seriously atrophied by years of Chiang’s ruthless extermination campaigns against the Communists. Now, with Chiang and many of his military supporters present at the front, the civilian leaders of the Guomindang could begin to exert more than their normal nominal control over the government. Even President Lin Sen, previously an obscure figurehead, began to take a more active role in government. Of course, this newfound influence was circumscribed by the pressures of war. Japanese armies had come perilously close to capturing the capital, a fact which no politician forgot. In organising relief measures, providing aid and maintaining roads and other day to day business, the Guomindang civilians forgot their silence, and contributed to good government. Corruption, previously the norm rather than the exception appeared to disappear (although it must be said that this was only a passing change, that would reemerge as soon the Japanese threat to Nanjing faded from memory).

One important measure was in organising coal supplies for the coming winter. Lin Sen arranged for coal supplies to be transported on Portuguese ships to enter Macao. Japan had yet to blockade Portuguese ships, and tens of thousands of refugees would benefit.

sac8.jpg

Portugal agrees to provide coal

Not only in the government, but in parliament too new voices were heard. The Popular Assembly had previously been mostly a rubber stamp for Chiang’s policies. Now the Communists were allowed to send delegates for the first time, as did the warlords. Debates were often fiery, and few topics were taboo. Coalitions and cliques were formed, destroyed and reformed with dizzying speed. Admittedly given its diverse membership it proved exceedingly difficult to actually get anything done, but the debates meant that politics and indeed society became much more open. The Parliament had gone from being a tame rubber stamp to a fiery hot air generator. In the short term at least, the formation of the United Front meant that the Republic of China became something resembling a democracy, even if a flawed one circumscribed by the circumstances of war.

OOC: In the game, the United Front Event turned us from a paternal autocrat dictatorship to a social conservative government. But for some reason I could still declare war

Cooperation between the various factions and sponsors was initially good. Soviet aid flowed through Xinjiang. A very limited amount took the form of mechanised agricultural equipment. Although first used in the North west in regions controlled by the Ma clans or Sheng Shicai, these improvements would eventually spread to Nationalist controlled regions, slowly boosting agricultural production.

Autumn Wind Resumed

The failure of Autumn Wind led to a few changes in the Guomindang armies would operate, at least in the short term. Previously, Chiang and Von Falkenhausen had favoured a very loose command structure, to allow lower ranking commanders to gain experience in command. This command structure had allowed the Guomindang commanders to gain battle experience, but the cost was a less effective command. In future the best commanders would gain much more direct control, which in practice meant that Von Falkenhausen and Chiang assumed much more direct command.

China’s economic strategy remained much the same despite the failure. More supplies, more equipment and more merchants. Von Falkenhausen’s recommendation of retraining and reequipping existing forces was largely accepted by the big 3 war ministers (Chiang, Li Zongren and Bai Chonxi).

sac10.jpg

Domestic Production Sliders

For nearly 3 weeks following the failure of Autumn Wind, United Front forces in Beiping and Tianjin rested and reequipped in preparation for a new offensive. Other forces reoccupied Kalgan, in greater numbers. This time Kalgan would remain under United Front control, as far greater numbers were sent to hold the war ravaged city. A far larger build up of supplies was made this time. Many units gathered a month's extra supplies for the offensive.

On October 16th, United front forces again marched north against Japanese positions. This time the offensive could not fail.

division.jpg

Autumn Wind recommences.
 
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