Avoiding the Bitter peace as Italy

[DABegley]

OK, I am Italy in June 1942 and the Axis is at war with Russia. Germany has made almost no progress due to being out of manpower from day one of the war. The Russians started the war in 1941. As Italy I have occupied most of southern Ukraine up to Kursk and out to Rostov. I also occupy everything south of a line from Rostov almost to the Black Sea and am near Stalingrad. I am well in advance of Russia in land doctrines and techs, I have more manpower than Russia and more units on the fronts I am fighting. I am now at the point where it is quite conceivable i will win this war with Russia so the question arises, do I have to worry about the Germans getting the Bitter Peace and taking all my conquered turf even though I will be occupying Stalingrad, Moscow and most of European Russia. Persia owns Baku and Japan Vladivostok. In this situation is there any way to avoid the Bitter peace? I searched the forums and didn't find any answer to that question. Thanks.

P.S. I am playing FTM.

 

[Kovax]

If Germany placed the wargoal, they will get all of it, other than a narrow sliver of Bessarabia that you can claim and keep. Since historical wargoals are applied AFTER the others, it will essentially undo whatever overlapping concessions you manage to achieve. Wargoals were only half finished in this game, and this is only one of several blatantly stupid cases where the game imposes a historical outcome regardless of the actual situation.

I declared the war on the Soviets myself on more than one occasion, playing as an Axis minor, and in one of those games Germany never bothered placing their wargoal, but in most cases it's automatic. Other than that (and obviously too late in your game), you can try to let the war continue undecided (by taking everything EXCEPT the VPs), and milk the occupied land for as long as possible, but your allies will probably "correct" that little oversight for you.

Good luck, but if Germany runs itself out of manpower early (either in France or Norway), it's basically a broken campaign, and I start over.

 

[DABegley]

Sigh. I was afraid that was the case. Is there any way to find out what wargoals Germany has chosen? Or maybe can Italy get Russia to surrender to her before Bitter peace kicks in? Otherwise I may get real cranky and declare war on Germany just for a little satisfaction. Thanks.

 

[Kovax]

Go to the Diplomacy screen, select Germany, and find the tab to change from a list of wars, alliances, and guarantees to any wargoals by and against them. If it lists Bitter Peace, you're out of luck. I don't think you can declare war on a faction member, and even if you do, they're STILL likely to get their wargoal, the way peace settlements are coded.

Note that the US will get control of a piece of Germany after Germany's surrender, even if the US wasn't in the Allies or at war with Germany. Stupid wargoals are stupid. This game BADLY needed one more patch or expansion before the team switched over to HOI4.

 

[DABegley]

Thanks Kovax. I'll check to see what their war goals are. I'll probably finish the war anyway as I have put a lot of time into it. Germany will get all the turf, such is life, but I will have aton of troops and a couple carriers to shield an invasion of England. The inability to declare on a faction member is distressing as I have had the long term goal of annexing Vichy France and they are in the war on the Axis side. I don't know if they are a faction member but they are in the war so most likely they are. I was set up to attack them when the peace expired but Russia attacked first. That would be very annoying if they were immune to my righteous wrath. I am still annoyed at Persia joining the Axis just as I was set to roll into them.

 

[Kovax]

You can sometimes use tricks to get an opponent to conquer a country that's allied to you, so you can take it from them.

Example: As GER, ever want to paint the map gray, and that Slovakian state is the wrong color? You can't attack them because they're in your faction, and can't throw them out of your faction. What you CAN do is declare war on Hungary (rather than invite Hungary into the Axis) and let them absorb Slovakia. Then you steamroll Hungary and get two for the price of one.

 

[DABegley]

Germany has chosen Drang nach Osten but I do not see Bitter Peace. It sounds like Bitter peace is an event that will happen after they choose Drang nach Osten and after the Soviet Union is overrun so I think I am basically out of luck. I also am out of luck with Vichy France as I cannot declare war on my coalition member and Italy owns Gibraltar and the Suez so no Allies can get to her to annex her for me to annex back. Too bad as Italy has annexed Spain and a land bridge to the Spanish provinces would be nice. Since the Germans/Persians/Japanese own India and I own east Africa there really is not much for Italy to do until she can invade England. I could ease up on Russia and see if I can get her to overrun Germany but that would be dicey. I couldn't let her get too powerful or when Germany falls I won't be able to beat Russia. Any suggestions on future directions? Thanks.

 

[Kovax]

An invasion of the UK should be relatively easy, if you can get past the Royal Navy. I used a distraction in a couple of games to lure the RN out of position, then sent my transports in. Once you've got a port and a Corps or two ashore, the rest should be easy.

In one game, playing Hungary, I was able to position a lone sub as a spotter in a sea province adjacent to the target area, send my 3 transports across the channel, and as soon as a UK fleet showed up heading for the landing zone, race the transports back across the channel to a German port before they arrived. It took about 3 tries to catch the RN out of position, but I eventually got the troops ashore. A couple of months later, I had London and several other cities. Germany decided to "assist" with a landing of its own just in time to grab two or three undefended provinces before the UK surrendered, so I only got 90% of the island. If I can pull that off with Hungary's "fleet", it should be a cakewalk for Italy.

Germany's starting fleet of two old WWI battlecruisers and some aging destroyers makes a nice "decoy" for that kind of operation, and can hold up a UK fleet long enough to get the troops across. Italy should have no problem.

Also, way too late for this campaign, but if Italy doesn't join the Axis immediately, and waits until after Vichy forms, it's generally NOT an Axis member, and Italy doesn't have a truce with it. Once Italy joins the Axis, Germany will not enforce its guarantee on Vichy against Italy, so you can take Vichy as a freebie. If Vichy becomes and Axis member before the truce expires, and you haven't already declared war on them, you can't.

 

[DABegley]

Yea, I messed up the Italy/Vichy situation badly. I did not want to declare on France but lost my nerve when Germany looked like they were completely stymied and might even lose. I should have waited until after the fall of France and done what you advised, join Axis, declare on France. I went to wait out the peace and take France while Germany was busy but before I could attack France I was blitzed by Russia and needed the troops to save my Turkish provinces. Next thing I knew Vichy had joined the Axis and I was snookered. I guess on to London. I have built 4 new BBs and 2 new CVs so I have a good force to work with. There are also 16 ships, including 2 CVs and 4 BBs, of the British fleet stuck in Cyprus. I really should bomb them into oblivion and sink them after they are damaged enough but have been too busy.