Avoiding Arbitrary Penalties and Euro-Centrism

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Colombo

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Yes, you are right here. And I still like EU2/FtG much more even it is very outdated game. It is much more balanced, logical and realistic than EU3 (with expansions) despite old poor engineer and features. Personally I found CK2 some middle ground between balance and historical accuracy of EU2 and the historical plausibility of CK1/EU3. Still there are a lot of thing in that regard to improve and balance in CK2.

EU3 concepts and features are very interesting but in my opinion (and with my EU3 experience) they rather produced ahistorical absurdities than historical plausible outcomes. Despite of bugs same was the problem with HOI3. I afraid that we can see the same sad things with EU4 again.
But thats rubbish! EU2 was completly ahistorical and unrealistic! Why wouldn't anyone listen?

When you have historical event from 17 century about two people, who lived in history, and you started playing in 13 century and situation is completlydifferent, so called historical event is not historical and not realy realistic. Not plausible and realy absurd.

Why you can't see this? It is completly clear to me! Whats with so many people claiming that or whats with me, that I can see it so clearly? Are my thoughts rubbish? Than why?
 

RedRalphWiggum

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Well it should have more of a focus on Europe, because that is where the balance and realism of the game is dependent. However, to make it as real as possible, you should also try to pay attention to the rest of the world

Yeah but they have to balance things. It's a question of either getting the countries most people play really right and other ones not as good, or getting every country pretty good and then no one plays most of them.
 

SerialCereal

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Yes I kinda agree, at the begining of the time period europe was not the most advanced, they were behind China and the Ottoman Empire, but they're progress picks up, difference in the cultures, relegion, competition between nations resulted in the european nations taking the lead, catholic/protestan religion began to encourage scientific thinking, muslim and other religions often outlawed the search for enlightment through science.

My problem isn't with the euro-centric aspect, but more that they just throw in random tech rates. If they were to introduce modifiers so that it modified the tech rates, then you might be able to work to rid yourself of these modifiers, and so be able to advance as quick as the Europeans.
 

Connor Mulhern

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Yeah but they have to balance things. It's a question of either getting the countries most people play really right and other ones not as good, or getting every country pretty good and then no one plays most of them.
I agree, Europe should be the best working area because you cant spend all your resources equally, but even with that, far more resources are spent on Western Europe than Eastern Europe and the middle east. I mean the ottomans are terribly shafted by the ottoman tech group, even though they were the most advanced at the time. Does that mean that they will remain the best? N. Does that mean that the greeks could not retake the area? No. But the ottomans are always pounded on because they are muslim and even at a later start date are quite weak, while during the great Turkish wars half of Europe was trying to stop them yet they STILL almost took vienna. They were clearly doing something right, it was not a matter of luck. Turkey should have the opportunity, but at the same time, it should not have an bonuses saying it HAS to. Personally, I think it would be cool if the janissaries were not country specific but rather if a muslim country takes enough land it can create a "Yeni Ceri" corps. Its stuff like that, you know, maybe the malemuks ended up taking turkey and then Istanbul, so they should have the ability to also make janissaries (or its bonuses, depending on how it is represented)
 

1alexey

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My problem isn't with the euro-centric aspect, but more that they just throw in random tech rates. If they were to introduce modifiers so that it modified the tech rates, then you might be able to work to rid yourself of these modifiers, and so be able to advance as quick as the Europeans.
Aren`t Westenisation and tech groups work exactly like that?
 

Nimic

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I would hate it if Europa Universalis turned into some kind of misguided Civilization type "equality" arcade game. No, the machinations of EU3 are far from perfect representations of reality. But you have to make some such arbitrary decisions if you want a game that could more or less simulate history over several hundred years.
 

Kyoumen

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But thats rubbish! EU2 was completly ahistorical and unrealistic! Why wouldn't anyone listen?

When you have historical event from 17 century about two people, who lived in history, and you started playing in 13 century and situation is completlydifferent, so called historical event is not historical and not realy realistic. Not plausible and realy absurd.

Why you can't see this? It is completly clear to me! Whats with so many people claiming that or whats with me, that I can see it so clearly? Are my thoughts rubbish? Than why?

People, strange creatures that they are, often end up liking things you don't like. Crazy, I know! :)

But seriously, while I agree with you about which is preferable, ultimately it's just a matter of what kind of ahistorical nonsense you tolerate better. Is it crazier when the United States builds the Suez Canal for no conceivable reason (Victoria II frequent occurance, our preferred sort of sandboxy game) or when an allied Russia and Ottoman Empire suddenly turn on each other like rabid dogs even though Russia's still torn apart from a war with Britain (easy to see happen in Victoria 1, other people's favoured sort of historically railroaded game). I'm generalising, but ultimately it comes down to preference.
 

Darkath

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Yeah but they have to balance things. It's a question of either getting the countries most people play really right and other ones not as good, or getting every country pretty good and then no one plays most of them.

But it's a self fulfilling prophecy too, if a country is not as well designed as the other ones, people will have a tendency to ignore it instead, like the terrible japan or the funky ming.
 

Blastaz

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No, you have to change tech groups, rather than having modifiers over the country that affect research rate that can be removed. Just because it is advanced does not mean it has to dress like a european and use european units

As your graphical unit dress never changes, and changing your unit types is seperate military modernisation, what you are complaining about is the name of the modifier?

If it was called "ineficent bureaucracy" and it gave eastern -10%, muslims -20% and ROTW -50% tech and you could "reform the bureaucracy" one step at a time you would have no problem with it?
 

Colombo

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People, strange creatures that they are, often end up liking things you don't like. Crazy, I know! :)

But seriously, while I agree with you about which is preferable, ultimately it's just a matter of what kind of ahistorical nonsense you tolerate better. Is it crazier when the United States builds the Suez Canal for no conceivable reason (Victoria II frequent occurance, our preferred sort of sandboxy game) or when an allied Russia and Ottoman Empire suddenly turn on each other like rabid dogs even though Russia's still torn apart from a war with Britain (easy to see happen in Victoria 1, other people's favoured sort of historically railroaded game). I'm generalising, but ultimately it comes down to preference.
Kyumen: I am not arguing about liking, what you like is up to you. But about those arguments of "accuracy" and "plausibility" and "historicity".
Someone may prefere railroading. I love sandbox. But please, don't buffer your liking with false arguments.
 

Kyoumen

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I would hate it if Europa Universalis turned into some kind of misguided Civilization type "equality" arcade game.

Absolutely nobody in the thread has asked for that, so you're probably pretty safe. Seriously, the argument is that Europe is ahistorically too strong, and the rest of the world should not be so quickly overshadowed by Europe in EUIV, but that is very much not a call for all countries to be on equal footing. Make them closer to match reality ≠ making them the same.

Europe should absolutely advance faster than a given African country technologically (barring heroic player efforts or vanishingly unlikely luck for the AI). However, no European country should easily conquer and colonise all of Africa (because this simply didn't happen in the EUIII timeframe in reality, and couldn't have happened without extremely large departures from reality), and African countries should actually be able to have powerful polities with partially Westernised and gun-armed militaries by the end of the game, because several of them did do this in reality.
 

Evie HJ

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AFAIK (and Latin-American history has never interested me so much because the biggest school is the one who defends that spaniards killed hundreds of millions of people for the hell of it) around 1550 a spanish conquistador went to maya's land and exterminate everyone who didn't recognise the spanish crown... that made them revolt against us, but they couldn't beat as in the long run. Diseases 8and not us, c'mon) did slaughter them, and they're tactics were... obsolet to say the least compared to the spanish tactics*
Also, I was speaking about the period under spanish domination, Maxico had several problems with natives and no natives in the XIX century



*And still we were defeated several times by different tribes... specially those who later were conquered by USA and Mexico in texas, California and such. We didn't rule that land, we just had some missions around and some forts

False on at least two counts.

First, the Maya who initially rejected Spanish authority were conquered, not slaughtered.
Second, while most Mayan territories were conquered between 1520 and 1550, the Mayans of the Peten basin in Guatemala (province of Peten in EU3) remained independent and largely unaffected by European societies and cultures until the conquest of Tayasal in 1697, otherwise known as 150 years later. This is represented in the in-game history files.

----------

And as others said, there should be a distinction between "Europe is faster at gaining technology" (it absolutely should be), and "all the other nations of the world are pushovers for Europe due to their technological disadvantage" (which should only come into play in the last 100 years of the game or so).
 

Herr Doctor

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But thats rubbish! EU2 was completly ahistorical and unrealistic! Why wouldn't anyone listen?

When you have historical event from 17 century about two people, who lived in history, and you started playing in 13 century and situation is completlydifferent, so called historical event is not historical and not realy realistic. Not plausible and realy absurd.

Why you can't see this? It is completly clear to me! Whats with so many people claiming that or whats with me, that I can see it so clearly? Are my thoughts rubbish? Than why?
EU2 was not an ideal game and I agree that event system is very odd. But it was way better than EU3 now and it worked. The problem with EU3 is that the "states" NEVER (absolutely NEVER) behave themselves as historical entities: concluding dynastic policy, creating personal unions, stimulating balance of power, opening into war coalitions to stop someone's from crazy expansion, conquering or colonizing not just to take some land but for the economical or political advantage etc etc. All the countries in EU3 do is just grabbing lands without any reason and any considerations. This is pathetic really.

And now removing the reasonable tech restrictions would only make the things worse turning this game into absurdity even more. Now you would see not Portugal conquering inland China (which is crazy indeed) but China conquering Portugal. Is this any better?
 

Colombo

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EU2 was not an ideal game and I agree that event system is very odd. But it was way better than EU3 now and it worked. The problem with EU3 is that the "states" NEVER (absolutely NEVER) behave themselves as historical entities: concluding dynastic policy, creating personal unions, stimulating balance of power, opening into war coalitions to stop someone's from crazy expansion, conquering or colonizing not just to take some land but for the economical or political advantage etc etc. All the countries in EU3 do is just grabbing lands without any reason and any considerations. This is pathetic really.

And now removing the reasonable tech restrictions would only make the things worse turning this game into absurdity even more. Now you would see not Portugal conquering inland China (which is crazy indeed) but China conquering Portugal. Is this any better?
So you don't like AI behaving. Non of us like it. And we wants better coalition system against big boys.
That we all would got from EUIV. And there is no point in turning back and doing it in old, false, style.

Define historical entities. And no, EU2 didn't "worked" in way you are destribing.

So, please, thing about it. Thing about your liking. Your arguments are mostly ilusions you are creating. Thing about, what you realy like and stop thinking about new false arguments, you could say.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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Yes, islands and other highly-defensible areas can be held using a navy. But hiding on an island is different to actually going out and holding land. Tactically, an island fortress is just the same as a big, stationary ship.


It's not just the weapon, it's how it's used. Have you seen a Khanda in action? There aren't really any good videos to justify it, most of them show ritualised demonstrations and dances. Western swordsmen parry, cut and stab. A Khanda spins like a propeller blade. It's much heavier than a western 1-handed sword (more like an axe) and can knock away anything it comes against. The closest western equivalent is one of those fantasy ball-and-chain weapons. And the same patterns of movement can be applied to different weapons for different effects. Axes, maces, chain-shields, flexible, 3-foot-long serrated swords. British soldiers in the Punjab campaigns reported that enemy troops would keep on attacking even after being transfixed on bayonets.

I will admit that by the time we went to India the fully armoured infantry with broadsword and shield was considered mostly obsolete. British military doctrine had moved away from close combat, and had moved to focus on rifles or musket and bayonets. That said, officers were still expected to be familiar with swords, but as a ritualised dueling weapon. This is in the same way that mostly naked Zulus were able to use spears to stab a large number of British soldiers, armed with the latest in firearms technology, to death in Africa. I hope you aren't intending to argue that they were on a par militarily with the British Empire of the time?

However: the "fantasy ball and chain weapon" you refer to is called a flail. It is real, and sometimes confused with the morning star - as far as the information I have seen this is a spiked mace.
In addition, if you can funnel more men with weapons at a block of riflemen than they can cut down with bullets in the time it takes you to get to them, then you have as advantage. Rifles or musket with bayonets are not ideal melee weapons, especially against any decent practical melee weapon. Hell, even a decent greek pike block could crush their way through a musket line if they got to it intact.

Spinning your weapon like a propellor is not an efficient way to fight. It uses energy and tires you. It commits you to a fixed pattern of blows.
I would be interested to know what European one handed sword you are comparing the khanda to as well. Was it the cinqueda? Was it the rapier, the small sword, the backsword? Was it English or Scottish broadsword? Could it perhaps be one of the many court swords, or the sabre? Perhaps you mean to compare it to the cutlass or the bastard sword, used in either one or two hands, depending on what else you are using, and the blows you are employing? All of these are very different weapons, and used in different ways. The bastard sword can be used in such a way that you weave a figure eight pattern, but although it is great at encouraging people not to approach or step into your reach, if it is parried or stopped it leaves you vulnerable whilst you switch to actually placing blows that are aimed at something. As I say though, these were considered obsolete.
Perhaps this would be best dealt with by something akin to the fire/shock system that exists. Rifle units get good fire and poor-moderate shock (melee phase). Khanda armed troops (or earlier European broadsword troops) would get no fire, but good shock.

As for being transfixed on bayonets, you get stories of people being shot through with modern assault weaponry and it not stopping them dead. If it's just gone through muscle tissue rather than hit vital organs the adrenaline can keep going for minutes afterwards. If it's "just" a gut wound, people can live for weeks afterwards, before dying of infections. They can even recover. In a fight, just because someone has had an arm smashed and mangled doesn't mean they can't still stab you as well. Just because they've got a 1 inch wide hole in their left shoulder doesn't stop them stabbing you with their right.
 

Kyoumen

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EU2 was not an ideal game and I agree that event system is very odd. But it was way better than EU3 now and it worked. The problem with EU3 is that the "states" NEVER (absolutely NEVER) behave themselves as historical entities: concluding dynastic policy, creating personal unions, stimulating balance of power, opening into war coalitions to stop someone's from crazy expansion, conquering or colonizing not just to take some land but for the economical or political advantage etc etc. All the countries in EU3 do is just grabbing lands without any reason and any considerations. This is pathetic really.

They do more than that. For instance, they trust countries that uphold alliances, they distrust and grow unfriendly to countries that gobble up lands and ignore the niceties of politics, they pounce on countries they don't like if they've been weakened at war, they do in fact aggressively try to marry and claim thrones of countries with no strong heir (I'd argue they in fact do this too much). They don't understand balance of power, no, but they didn't in EUII and are pretty unlikely to understand it in EUIV either. It's a very tricky concept to objectively nail down. The addition of coalitions may well help.

And now removing the reasonable tech restrictions would only make the things worse turning this game into absurdity even more. Now you would see not Portugal conquering inland China (which is crazy indeed) but China conquering Portugal. Is this any better?

It probably is, in the sense that China actually possesses the ability to aggressively expand, modernise (or just not stagnate) and win an all-out war with Portugal at land and sea, whereas Portugal is simply completely incapable of defeating China to the point of annexing large swaths of its territory unless they are not actually Portugal (like, they're a unified Iberia and Occitan France that happens to still be called "Portugal" for some reason). One's actually pretty much impossible and the other is just really, really, really unlikely.

In all seriousness - you, like others, are missing the point that nobody is arguing for the removal of reasonable tech restrictions. They are arguing for the removal (actually, changing) of the unreasonable tech restrictions that make it perfectly feasible and in fact not hugely difficult for Portugal to defeat and annex large chunks of China in the 1600s when this was laughably impossible.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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EU2 was not an ideal game and I agree that event system is very odd. But it was way better than EU3 now and it worked. The problem with EU3 is that the "states" NEVER (absolutely NEVER) behave themselves as historical entities: concluding dynastic policy, creating personal unions, stimulating balance of power, opening into war coalitions to stop someone's from crazy expansion, conquering or colonizing not just to take some land but for the economical or political advantage etc etc. All the countries in EU3 do is just grabbing lands without any reason and any considerations. This is pathetic really.

And now removing the reasonable tech restrictions would only make the things worse turning this game into absurdity even more. Now you would see not Portugal conquering inland China (which is crazy indeed) but China conquering Portugal. Is this any better?

Dynastic policy is unfortunately abstracted out since we don't have any available dynastic information beyond "Royal Marriage between X and Y". However personal unions do form. Sometimes you even get wars of succession. War coalitions are probably best represented at present by alliance groups engaging in badboy wars with the more infamous nations.
What do you suggest that nations are getting out of their colonisation at the moment - beyond more land (and thus more resources - economic advantage), or cutting other nations off from said resources (political advantage); controlling all, or most, of a "rare" resource (coffee, tea, cotton - again economic, but with some political gain), or gaining more land to move "excess" population to whilst you build up a population base and resources that you can then use to subjugate hostile powers near your homeland (political).
 

Me_

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In all seriousness - you, like others, are missing the point that nobody is arguing for the removal of reasonable tech restrictions. They are arguing for the removal (actually, changing) of the unreasonable tech restrictions that make it perfectly feasible and in fact not hugely difficult for Portugal to defeat and annex large chunks of China in the 1600s when this was laughably impossible.

I think that a main reason for this phenomenon (Europeans moping the floor with non-Europeans) is the stacking penalties - Europeans have better techs, sliders, governments, average income, units, religions, more overflow tech from minors; i.e. there too are many areas where Europeans have big advantages culminating in a huge difference whereas it should be lots of small advantages culminating in a big difference.