Avoiding Arbitrary Penalties and Euro-Centrism

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Talq

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Civilization was a terrible book at a number of levels, but I'm pretty sure it didn't make the mistake of arguing that all of its management-speak advantages were valuable at all times. The most tangible benefits of Western medicine were after the EU period, and explains for eg the Western hegemony over Africa in the 19th century. In any event smallpox vaccination =/= the entirety of medicine. (Its not even the full benefits of immunization, and smallpox was the only vaccine that was developed prior to the development of germ theory).

I will add in passing, that while I'm entirely comfortable with people not reading the book and encouraging its pompous author and while reading the book is unlikely to improve ones opinion of it, criticising it without having read it does run the risk of constructing easily refutable strawman arguments (like presuming it relates only to the EU period ignoring the minor point that the EU period ends 2 centuries before the present day).
 

Merrick Chance'

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My issue is that it was brought up in the context of the EU period. That's why I attacked it in that context.
 

unmerged(237424)

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A simple comment

The Arab world stagnated about 1200-1300, but Europe didn't catch up with it until about 1500-1600. Thus the "several centuries", which would mostly be prior to the EU era.
I need to remark something here. The knowledge of which you talk about, was already there in the monasteries. Monks and priests wrote for a long time a crapload of books letter by letter. The fact that Europe started to "catch up" was not because they said "Hey, f*** Catholicism, it's wrong (which, frankly, by the 1400-1500 was undergoing a state of decadence -> Powder for the P.Counter Reformation)" but because they found out how to mass print texts.
Moreover, yes, in some sense, they scrapped Catholicism, but not because it was wrong, but because it didn't suit them. The amoral principles of Machiavelli are an example of that. Doing what you want to do just for your sake, without obeying Rome was something really really attractive for a ruler of that time. Machiavelli destroyed the excellent principles laid by Tomas Aquino (sorry, don't know how to spell it in English). Let's not forget that the University of Salamanca was very advanced, going so far as to develop stuff radical for their time. As Weber and Mises say, they basically...debunked Marx theories 3 centuries before. I really don't understand why some people call the Middle Ages a place of darkness bla bla bla. I mean, up until someone discovered how to mass print stuff, there was not much you could do. There was intellectual advance and stuff was made. Not like they fell behind in "technology/science" with the rest of the world.

Now, I wonder what would happened if the asshat of Frederick III hadn't given help to Luther...It would be extremely interesting to see a Europe following the political principles of Tomas Aquino and not the ones based upon Luther's teachings/Machiavelli.

EDIT:I got a book here written by Varela (Argentine lawyer) about political developments through history. I will try to translate the text about the Middle Ages to english.
 

Dragoneer

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Am i the only one who actually love how the world in eu3 is represented? I like how north african countries starts out with better tech than the europeans and slowly fall behind, i like how 3k cavarly expeditions in the new world can rout big native armies, and i love how when you play an asian country you start to look over your shoulder more and more as you head farther inn the game as you know those powerfull europeans are coming. I actually love the entire tech system, the details are pretty amazing with all the tech groups and their well thought out differences, and i would be very sad if they did something drastic like removing it in euIV
 

James The 1st

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I need to remark something here. The knowledge of which you talk about, was already there in the monasteries. Monks and priests wrote for a long time a crapload of books letter by letter. The fact that Europe started to "catch up" was not because they said "Hey, f*** Catholicism, it's wrong (which, frankly, by the 1400-1500 was undergoing a state of decadence -> Powder for the P.Counter Reformation)" but because they found out how to mass print texts.
Moreover, yes, in some sense, they scrapped Catholicism, but not because it was wrong, but because it didn't suit them. The amoral principles of Machiavelli are an example of that. Doing what you want to do just for your sake, without obeying Rome was something really really attractive for a ruler of that time. Machiavelli destroyed the excellent principles laid by Tomas Aquino (sorry, don't know how to spell it in English). Let's not forget that the University of Salamanca was very advanced, going so far as to develop stuff radical for their time. As Weber and Mises say, they basically...debunked Marx theories 3 centuries before. I really don't understand why some people call the Middle Ages a place of darkness bla bla bla. I mean, up until someone discovered how to mass print stuff, there was not much you could do. There was intellectual advance and stuff was made. Not like they fell behind in "technology/science" with the rest of the world.

Now, I wonder what would happened if the asshat of Frederick III hadn't given help to Luther...It would be extremely interesting to see a Europe following the political principles of Tomas Aquino and not the ones based upon Luther's teachings/Machiavelli.

EDIT:I got a book here written by Varela (Argentine lawyer) about political developments through history. I will try to translate the text about the Middle Ages to english.
It's Thomas Aquinas in English, and yes, he's totally awesome.:)
 

Merrick Chance'

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What the non-Eurocentrists are arguing for isn't an elimination of tech maluses, but rather a more fleshed out mechanic of why those maluses are there, and a more realistic portrayal of the knowledge spread around the world--the Ottomans held their own against the Austrians until the 18th century, and contemporaneously Qing China was held as the model for the concept of Enlightened Despotism.

Instead we have a world completely dominated by Europe, that sees North Africa getting carved up, Austria and the Ottomans at 19th century borders within a few short years, and an absolutely do-nothing China.
 

Sun_Wu

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What the non-Eurocentrists are arguing for isn't an elimination of tech maluses, but rather a more fleshed out mechanic of why those maluses are there, and a more realistic portrayal of the knowledge spread around the world--the Ottomans held their own against the Austrians until the 18th century, and contemporaneously Qing China was held as the model for the concept of Enlightened Despotism.

Instead we have a world completely dominated by Europe, that sees North Africa getting carved up, Austria and the Ottomans at 19th century borders within a few short years, and an absolutely do-nothing China.
Or perhaps what would have happened if the Donglin school succeeded in convincing the Wanli Emperor towards basically classical liberalism? What would have happened if the Jesuits succeeded in China (or Japan for that matter)? What would have happened if instead of oceangoing ships getting banned the Emperor continued to fund exploratory missions? What would have happened if Ming proto-capitalism carried on further?
 

Merrick Chance'

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Or perhaps what would have happened if the Donglin school succeeded in convincing the Wanli Emperor towards basically classical liberalism? What would have happened if the Jesuits succeeded in China (or Japan for that matter)? What would have happened if instead of oceangoing ships getting banned the Emperor continued to fund exploratory missions? What would have happened if Ming proto-capitalism carried on further?

Precisely! What would have happened had the Sultanate of Malacca started colonizing the East Indies? Or if a Daimyo had managed to modernize his state and take over Japan? What if the Mughals expanded into Persia, or if a local revolt but an Arab on the Mameluke throne?

As I said before, if you want to create a sandbox game, or a plausible history game, you need to make it sandbox/plausible for all countries, not just the Europeans. And there are so many amazing possibilities in the ROTW that I really cannot understand the players who keep themselves cooped up in one small corner of the world. With the exception of my current AAR, my 3 funnest games have been a Hindustani game, a Malaccan game, and an Arabian game.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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Precisely! What would have happened had the Sultanate of Malacca started colonizing the East Indies? Or if a Daimyo had managed to modernize his state and take over Japan? What if the Mughals expanded into Persia, or if a local revolt but an Arab on the Mameluke throne?
What would have happened if an otherwise unknown half-crazed peasant from Gentofte in Denmark with a charismatic personality and a mind like an abacus had a most disturbing vision of what it is really all about and launched a new religion that, in a matter of decades, swept across Europe with fire and sword, converting both christians and muslims?

What would have happened if the Chinese peasantry finally had enough, throwing off the yoke of the aristocracy and bureaucracy in favour of a new unique merit-based government based on the skill at playing Go?

What would have happened if the Aztec Triple Alliance had died in its cradle, leaving the tribes to fight eachother and their neighbours rather than unite and fight everybody else they could conveniently reach?

What would have happened if cooler and less greedy heads had prevailed and the thirty years war had been averted, ushering in an age of goodwill towards all (or at least all who were white and christian) in which competition was primarily technological, effectively bypassing the renaissance and punting Europe into the industrial era by 1700 or so?

As I said before, if you want to create a sandbox game, or a plausible history game, you need to make it sandbox/plausible for all countries, not just the Europeans. And there are so many amazing possibilities in the ROTW that I really cannot understand the players who keep themselves cooped up in one small corner of the world. With the exception of my current AAR, my 3 funnest games have been a Hindustani game, a Malaccan game, and an Arabian game.
And as I've said before, plausibility is as plausibility does and there is no way to cover every possibility when making a game.

I quite agree that there are many amazing possibilities in the ROTW. There are many amazing possibilities everywhere. That's inherent in making a game of alternate history. Thus, what is important when making a game is to know how to limit yourself and concentrate on making things awesome within the limits you have set, and THEN, if circumstances permit, making things even better outside the limits.

Making games is about constraints and doing the best you can within the constraints. You have constraints of hardware capabilities, team skills, budget, and timeline. You have tradeoffs. Any developer time spent on one attractive task that would make the game better is time that is not spent on another attractive task, that would also make the game better. So what you do is choose what to focus on to create a killer game concept that you can, hopefully, develop a great game capable of achieving on time, on budget, and on quality.

Paradox has chosen to focus primarily on EUROPE in their Europa Universalis game. To focus on European expansion, interactions, and religion strife. The ROTW is there and is playable, but it is the setting and to a large degree exists as speedbumps for European expansion, not the focus. This is their choice and, given that design choice, it would be the utmost of folly to spend as much effort on the ROTW as they spend on Europe as it would dilute the game as a whole. The EU series has a strong underlying narrative, and a powerful narrative it is: the rise of Europe to dominate the world.

That is not to argue that this design choice is the only way to approach the period, of course; It most certainly isn't, and one can certainly argue that within the scope of the possible it is a narrow focus.

Then again, narrow focuses and clear design goals traditionally make for the best games and are easier to budget for and plan out, so it is an understandable design choice and anybody wanting a wide-open sandbox game that is, as you would have it, "plausible for all countries, not just Europeans", rather than clearly favouring and focusing on a certain part of the world will have to wait for another professional developer to tackle the job and deliver something that does this on time, on budget, and on quality.

(The Civilization series, amusingly enough, probably comes closest to this of all released strategy games, but it is probably not this type of historical gaming you are looking for. But one most admire Sid Meier for the original game concept as it is one of the strongest in gaming even today: Build a civilization to stand the test of time. :))
 

Closet Skeleton

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Closet, that argument sounds suspiciously like "I can't find anything to the contrary, therefore, you are wrong."

My argument is not that Europe will always end up better, but that areas that are essentially balkanized will have better military technology because of the drive of having to make sure the guy next door doesn't wreck you.

While my argument is that I have no evidence that 'increased military advancement due to arms race and competition was a factor that favoured Europe. It wasn't really an argument at all though.

Prussia/Germany, for one, managed to be one of the leading states of the West despite being autocratic and authoritarian.

Prussia is a pretty odd case. Prussia was the stable, liberal and democratic heart of Germany in the Weimar period, with Berlin becoming some kind of hated Babylon by the conservative Germans. Bismark's conservatism was more of a violent reaction to the liberal revolutions that were extremely supported in Germany. Germany's communist revolutions at the end of WW1 had more support than Russia's. There was always an odd disconnect in Prussia between the rhetoric of its leaders and the actions of its citizens, even when they didn't actively rebel as much as the other German states. Most autocratic states were paternalistic in a 'the king knows best, you don't have to think because you're under his protection' way while Prussia's militarism meant that the state was more inclusive of its citizens. Prussia was a lot better at pretending it wasn't treating its population like slaves and some of those slaves believed that pretence enough to in effect be free.

European libraries were full of the Greeks when? Because I'm not arguing over the whole period of EU. I'm arguing that at the very beginning of the game that Europe is still "Languishing in the Dark Ages". It was only after the reinsertion of Greek philosophy into Western culture after the fall of Constantinople that you got the widespread growth of the Renaissance.

Europe had pretty much its complete set of Greek texts in the golden ages of the Kingdom of Sicily and Toledo in Castille. The important thing that came with the fall of Constantinople was skilled Greek craftsmen and teachers. We'd had the books for centuries.

It wasn't all Greek stuff either. Avicenna and Galen were the main sources of medical knowledge until the 17th century. That's an 11th century Persian who was as popular as a 2nd century Roman, with no Greek being trusted very highly on medical matters.

William Harvey shocked the medical establishment and was widely opposed for his 1628 treatise on circulation that went against Galen. Circulation had previously been described in 1242 by a Muslim. Harvey's work is basically the first clear European advancement in medicine over the Romans and it didn't happen until the 17th century and was still four hundred years behind a Islamic work.

People who blame Catholicism all the time aren't really right. The Catholicism vs science idea has been heavily exaggerated. Galileo was a catholic who was imprisoned for political reasons by other Catholics, not a victim of a Science vs Religion conflict. His main predecessor Copernicus was a catholic who while suffering some religious criticism was supported by the Pope. The Catholic Priests hated religious reform that reduced their power but were often very educated people with an interest in scientific development.

Paradox has chosen to focus primarily on EUROPE in their Europa Universalis game. To focus on European expansion, interactions, and religion strife. The ROTW is there and is playable, but it is the setting and to a large degree exists as speedbumps for European expansion, not the focus. This is their choice and, given that design choice, it would be the utmost of folly to spend as much effort on the ROTW as they spend on Europe as it would dilute the game as a whole. The EU series has a strong underlying narrative, and a powerful narrative it is: the rise of Europe to dominate the world.

But giving a more complex tech system biased towards Europe rather than arbitrary groups that force Europe's advancement IS focusing on Europe.

What next, you'll be telling me women wearing the burqa is actually misandry because it assumes men are savage animals with no self control that they would go into a fury that they would rape a woman at the sight of exposed ankles?

Sarcasm?
 

brifbates

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What the non-Eurocentrists are arguing for isn't an elimination of tech maluses, but rather a more fleshed out mechanic of why those maluses are there, and a more realistic portrayal of the knowledge spread around the world--the Ottomans held their own against the Austrians until the 18th century, and contemporaneously Qing China was held as the model for the concept of Enlightened Despotism.

Instead we have a world completely dominated by Europe, that sees North Africa getting carved up, Austria and the Ottomans at 19th century borders within a few short years, and an absolutely do-nothing China.

Well, there are two pretty obvious causes for the problems you list.

1) neighbor tech bonus-while I think everyone will agree that there needs to be a system to represent tech spreading, the current implementation leaves a lot to be desired from a balance perspective. The OE doesn't generally fall behind the big western powers because of their research, they fall behind because of all the protected OPM hypertechers feeding the western powers neighbor bonuses while the OE can expect pretty close to no help.

2) The ai decision tree for declaring wars and lack of distance constraints leads to massive dogpiles on the N. African states and OE when coupled with holy war/crusade for no pain dows. You even see the ai declare no cb wars against them fairly often (happened to me Sun morning with Denmark attacking my OE). The ai doesn't know how to defend so the OE ends up totally boned in that scenario quite often while a player OE can almost laugh it off and will certainly have little trouble in most cases.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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But giving a more complex tech system biased towards Europe rather than arbitrary groups that force Europe's advancement IS focusing on Europe.
And it is certainly possible that we'll see a more complex system. If so, it too will be vulnerable to the accusation of being arbitrary since there is no "correct" model to adhere to.

The EU series has, until known, lumped technological progress into a few easily distinguishable categories mixing up theoretical, practical, and doctrinal advances with their applications and measured by a single value each that advances linearly over time as a result of government investment and a few factors chosen to simulate prevailing ideas about how technology spreads. Techgroups exist to skew the results of the linear income->research transformation in the favour of the Europeans and produce historical gradients of high/medium/low tech without making areas of the world that should be valuable for Europeans to exploit dirt poor.

This is:
  1. Completely insane from any real-world POV of technology and its deployment. This is, fundamentally, not how the world works. Not in the time period covered, not before, not after, and not now. We may not know how it actually works, but we definitely know that it is not like this. :D
  2. An excellent design choice as the investment model is a familiar gaming mechanic that all players understand on an intuitive level and, moreover, it delivers on design goals with a minimum of fuss.

I expect any new model to retain roughly the same level of complexity or to have more complexity with more hidden beneath the hood, so to speak, though that requires a lot of good design work to work while retaining the accessibility and intuitive game mechanics for the user to manipulate, so I consider the former more likely than the latter.

I also consider an updated tech model to be more of a "nice to have" than a "need to have" since the existing model is actually very strong at achieving its goals while being user-friendly, but hey, it would be fun to see a new tech system. :D
 
Last edited:

Namm

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What drove European advancements in the post Medieval era? What we can conclude is that the geographical position of Europe did not change during this era, nor did the skin tones of Europeans. Hmm. Then what were the reasons? Two major things (among several more, yes) was the discovery of the New World and the shift of trade routes. Two things that will be modeled in EU4. Two things that at the beginning of the 15th century wasn't a given (hardcoded) fact (modifier).
 

Sun_Wu

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What would have happened if an otherwise unknown half-crazed peasant from Gentofte in Denmark with a charismatic personality and a mind like an abacus had a most disturbing vision of what it is really all about and launched a new religion that, in a matter of decades, swept across Europe with fire and sword, converting both christians and muslims?

What would have happened if the Chinese peasantry finally had enough, throwing off the yoke of the aristocracy and bureaucracy in favour of a new unique merit-based government based on the skill at playing Go?

What would have happened if the Aztec Triple Alliance had died in its cradle, leaving the tribes to fight eachother and their neighbours rather than unite and fight everybody else they could conveniently reach?

What would have happened if cooler and less greedy heads had prevailed and the thirty years war had been averted, ushering in an age of goodwill towards all (or at least all who were white and christian) in which competition was primarily technological, effectively bypassing the renaissance and punting Europe into the industrial era by 1700 or so?


And as I've said before, plausibility is as plausibility does and there is no way to cover every possibility when making a game.

I quite agree that there are many amazing possibilities in the ROTW. There are many amazing possibilities everywhere. That's inherent in making a game of alternate history. Thus, what is important when making a game is to know how to limit yourself and concentrate on making things awesome within the limits you have set, and THEN, if circumstances permit, making things even better outside the limits.

Making games is about constraints and doing the best you can within the constraints. You have constraints of hardware capabilities, team skills, budget, and timeline. You have tradeoffs. Any developer time spent on one attractive task that would make the game better is time that is not spent on another attractive task, that would also make the game better. So what you do is choose what to focus on to create a killer game concept that you can, hopefully, develop a great game capable of achieving on time, on budget, and on quality.

Paradox has chosen to focus primarily on EUROPE in their Europa Universalis game. To focus on European expansion, interactions, and religion strife. The ROTW is there and is playable, but it is the setting and to a large degree exists as speedbumps for European expansion, not the focus. This is their choice and, given that design choice, it would be the utmost of folly to spend as much effort on the ROTW as they spend on Europe as it would dilute the game as a whole. The EU series has a strong underlying narrative, and a powerful narrative it is: the rise of Europe to dominate the world.

That is not to argue that this design choice is the only way to approach the period, of course; It most certainly isn't, and one can certainly argue that within the scope of the possible it is a narrow focus.

Then again, narrow focuses and clear design goals traditionally make for the best games and are easier to budget for and plan out, so it is an understandable design choice and anybody wanting a wide-open sandbox game that is, as you would have it, "plausible for all countries, not just Europeans", rather than clearly favouring and focusing on a certain part of the world will have to wait for another professional developer to tackle the job and deliver something that does this on time, on budget, and on quality.

(The Civilization series, amusingly enough, probably comes closest to this of all released strategy games, but it is probably not this type of historical gaming you are looking for. But one most admire Sid Meier for the original game concept as it is one of the strongest in gaming even today: Build a civilization to stand the test of time. :))
Everything I mention is completely plausible, the ban on oceangoing vessels seemed less probable than a continuation, if the Chinese Rites Controversy didn't happen or the Jesuits prevailed China would probably be Catholic, classical liberalism had a decent chance to succeed (like 30%), proto-capitalism could have continued if Nurhaci had died of smallpox (kills 20-30% of those who get it) or if the Manchu otherwise didn't unite.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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Everything I mention is completely plausible,
I quite agree.

So are all the "what ifs" I mentioned. Sure, they didn't happen in our history and they might not seem likely in retrospect, but they aren't more "far out" or implausible than some things that did happen historically. :)
 

Merrick Chance'

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"Cooler heads prevailing" stopping the 30 Years War would require a whole lot of cool heads though =p
 

Sun_Wu

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I quite agree.

So are all the "what ifs" I mentioned. Sure, they didn't happen in our history and they might not seem likely in retrospect, but they aren't more "far out" or implausible than some things that did happen historically. :)
Everything I listed had at least a 30% chance of happening, some had over 50% chance.

What you suggested about peasants is impossible considering Chinese culture, while skill at Weiqi was considered important for gentlemen it would never have formed the basis of a meritocratic bureaucracy, Chinese culture is rather top down and more or less dictates an Emperor or other strong leader. A bureaucracy would be necessary or it would quickly implode. Besides the peasants played xiangqi (it's a lot like chess) not Weiqi.

For the duration of the EU IV timeline China was one of the most powerful countries, it should thus deserve a little extra attention.
 

ANO1453

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You're welcome to find me examples of a European literary tradition during the middle ages compared to the immense historical works published by Muslims during the period (Ibn al-athir, Tabari, etc).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irnerius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accursius
If you're looking for historians, you get a whole list in Wikipedia, from several different countries.

Not to mention the large amount of Islamic works focusing on the sciences which were not at all touched on in medieval Europe. There was no Omar Khayyam or al-Khwarizmi in Europe.
What sciences? Physics?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_of_Saxony_(philosopher)
Mathematics?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelard_of_Bath
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_of_Reichenau
Astronomy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_de_Sacrobosco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_of_Wallingford

I'm not saying that Europe was more advanced than the Muslim world, only that I cannot see where, precisely, was the Muslim world more advanced.
 

Skulb

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It`s just that the problem with this is that it is anti-historical. If you take a long hard look at almost any nation or culture you can imagine you`ll find that there were deep reasons why they didn`t develop technologically, had limited development or even devolved into more primitive technological states. This is why this request is a request for a CIV game rather than a historical simulation.
There are some exceptions and grey areas like the Ottomans. But then again this empire lacked the division of temporal and spiritual power, as the Byzantine Empire did, which was one of the drivers of western innovation in the Middle Ages preceding the start of EU. You might think it`s not important that the political leader was also the spiritual leader but it most certainly is. This was the way it became in Rome under the emperors and most progress slowed down or even stopped under them until the empire collapsed. The main reason why Europe became different was the separation of these two powers early in the Middle Ages, so the emperor of the HRE was never the Pope and vice versa. If things like this aren`t implemented in a credible way in the game it will become non-historical and therefore a CIV type strategy game.
Your suggestion would make a simulation about European imperialism ignore the fundamental reasons for why the subject of the game actually took place.