Avoiding Arbitrary Penalties and Euro-Centrism

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Closet Skeleton

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Not really. It is more an issue of lifestyle, than immunity. Africans in tropics generally live on heights(that means wind will blow the moscitoes out of the village), and in rather small communities, far awy from water.

Europeans tried to settle down same way as in Europe, near water, and got hit by moskitoes and low quality of water rather hard.

It is not really about natural immunity, rather than the enviromental gearing, similar to the way how Africans will not know how to settle down in Siberia, due to it`s strong frosts, and lack of knowlege of agriculture in steppes.

Natural (by which we mean acquired through natural selection) genetic immunity to malaria was very important in why Africans were imported on mass to the Caribbean and later to the American South. It was not just 'how the Africans lived'. In the Caribbean, African slaves and European indentured servants were both imported to work on plantations. The European indentured servants were cheaper, had a superior work ethic (I'm not saying Africans are inherently lazy, people work best when motivated and slavery isn't a good motivator) and didn't run away. From a purely economic perspective the slave plantations shouldn't have been able to compete. But the Caribbean is part of the same tropical malaria belt as the slave's west African homeland so they were genetically superior in that environment. The Europeans died, the Africans didn't. That's why the slave trade became economically successful.

Lifestyle knowledge helped the slaves who ran away and went to live in the jungles of Brazil and Haiti, which were similar to their homeland. But on the plantations it was just a matter of biology which had resulted from environment.

The real reason Europeans didn't conquer Africa outside of a few trading posts is probably economics. The Europeans only interest in Africa was not territory, but resources (the main ones being Gold, Ivory and Slaves). Invasions are expensive. There were two ways to get at that Gold. One was to spend a ton of money and lives conquering the territory, then pay people to mine the gold while defending that territory from insurgents. The other is to just trade for it while someone else pays the labour costs. Not invading Africa was just common sense.

The conquest of India was also entirely economically driven. It was undertaken not by a nation state, but by a publicly owned corporation. Much like in Africa, only small areas of land were conquered. The British, French and Portuguese were only taking ports and city states. The British never conquered India as a whole, they controlled India through establishing political hegemony over the 'Princely States' and they were able to do so because the actual rulers of India found that this was (at first) to their economical advantage. The British didn't bring anything new to India. India had been set up for centuries as a land of many small states that could change allegiance between different Empires and survive continuous rise and fall of Empire after Empire. The British just slotted into that system. Their military skill wasn't an inconceivable bolt from the blue that let Britain do something that India had never seen, it just meant that Britain was the latest in a long line of powerful military forces on the continent. So those who were dissatisfied with their current overlord would do what they always did, get the new kid on the block to kill their boss for them and hope they prove to be a more benevolent ruler and if not, they could always get rid of the British in a century or two and replace them with someone else.
 

Secret Master

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Chaotic system is just that, lack of information. In system, where small change of parameter can mean big change in outcome, lack of information about parameters or just their approximation (that mean lack of information, but we know "something") does mean realy big changes in outcomes. Even when approximation of parameters are same in many runs.
Altrough in past years some (again SOME, not all) interpretations of quantum theory brought the pure natural randomnes in play, causality that plays role in macroworld means determinism.

That's my point. Randomness in a computer game is not really random (if anything is). RNGs rely on equations and seeds to generate random numbers. The seed may be anything from the clock on your computer to a set of memory locations in RAM. This produces a "random" result. but anyone with knowledge of the formulas used to generate the random number and knowledge of the seed can (with some effort) back track and predict the result. And that's before we plug that random number into an event code and calculate MTTH or AI chance of selecting an action.

But that would be more way more work than playing the game, so it provides what I like to think of as "good enough" randomness. Don't use it for your statistics course, but great for use in the home. :)
 

Eh up me duck

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That's my point. Randomness in a computer game is not really random (if anything is). RNGs rely on equations and seeds to generate random numbers. The seed may be anything from the clock on your computer to a set of memory locations in RAM. This produces a "random" result. but anyone with knowledge of the formulas used to generate the random number and knowledge of the seed can (with some effort) back track and predict the result. And that's before we plug that random number into an event code and calculate MTTH or AI chance of selecting an action.

But that would be more way more work than playing the game, so it provides what I like to think of as "good enough" randomness. Don't use it for your statistics course, but great for use in the home. :)
A random number seeded from the CPU time is pretty much as close to "perfectly" random as you can get.
 

icedt729

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(and no one likes Niall Ferguson, except his book about the history of money, which was apparently well received).
Really? I thought at least War of the World (1914-1950) would've been well received too. Maybe I just have a nostalgic attachment to him because I read Empire in my favorite class in high school.
 

KonradRichtmark

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You still ignore the point of what is realy randomnes.

For all intents and purposes that matter, pseudo-randomness is just as random as real randomness.
 
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Then again. Perhaps we should leave the guesses and rhetorical questions behind. You know this. You've been around in this forum since 2002. It follows that you are just teasing Gars. :p

Yea, I should have known it was useless to try and have a debate about this with you. Have fun I guess.
 

lowdias

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And yet it was Spain that conquered most of the world and not the Inca. I'd be interesting to hear your implementation of tech in a way that would please the majority of players (who play European nations).

I guess there is a huge difference between claiming something and actually having it. The spaniards did actually claim to control all of south america but that was never true. it is not superior weapons that made them 'conquer' but the actual lack of leadership and divisions of the opposing side.
 

Eh up me duck

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Only if I don't manipulate the clock, right?
random_number.png
 

murlocmancer

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IMO Europe's naturally poorer continent forced trade and expansion to the RICHER continents naturally. If something has everything they need then their is little reason to expand outside of it.
 

unmerged(471650)

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That is a peace of smiley BS
The naval technologies did not originated anywere else, but europe, since Europe had the best naval technology by 15s century, period.
The warfare, again was only European expertise, because no other place in the world went to have so many firearms, in the army.
By the start of 18 century, Europeans employed almost 100% firearms armed armies. That historically happened nowhere else, not even close, so they could not copy it, period.
Again, if you would have learned in school, you would know that western Natural Science was miles ahead of other places, in the 17s century already.
Just think of Isaac Newton, and his Laws, and pretty much all other names. Just open physic or chemistry, or mathmatic textbook for high school, and count the non-european names.
Sure there was stuff that was borrowed, but from 15s century onward, Europe already collected everything the world had to offer and from then, developed their own science.Science, that is currently studied in the entire world, by the way.
You are the one full of it.
china had manufacturies pre 1200.
and naval tech and ability where higher till the Emperor said no more ocean going ships.
Do some research first.
 
Last edited:

WeissRaben

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Mmmmh. The problem is not about tech, but about logistics. One little known fact is that Cortez expedition was almost wiped out, and the Spanish had to rely heavily on the Aztec's rebellious vassals and neighbors holding a grudge; but this was because having to cross the ocean meant that you could send only an handful of men. As others said, in EU3 sending 30k men to America is trivial.
 

Arilou

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Honestly, there are serious problems with modelling both pre-columbian america (as a playable state) and early-modern Europe. (Not to mention Asia and Africa) I think some degree of arbitrary handicaps is neccessary, simply because the same model won't work for all of them.
 

Secret Master

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Honestly, there are serious problems with modelling both pre-columbian america (as a playable state) and early-modern Europe. (Not to mention Asia and Africa) I think some degree of arbitrary handicaps is neccessary, simply because the same model won't work for all of them.

Bingo.

Let me give an excellent example from EU2 and EU3 (pre-certain expansions)

If you put Japan (pre-DW), China, the Indian states, and other countries in the same tech group as Europe at the start of the game, what happens is that Europe gets left behind because in the EU series money = research. The luxury goods produced in those areas (before the game tied demand to province buildings) meant that they were rolling in the money early on, turned that money into research, which created a huge economic snowball effect as better production and trade incomes resulted in even more money from their provinces and COTs.

To put it another way, because of the game's mechanic for turning income into research, the non-European states have to be nerfed right out of the gate or they get way ahead of what anyone, European or not, should be able to accomplish. This does not even take into account the issue of "Should we arbitrarily nerf non-Europeans to get historical tech growth" issues.

You can see this yourself in the game. If you unify India and then westernize, you end up getting ahead of Europe in all categories at a certain point because your income is off the charts. You own a collection of provinces with huge production and tax incomes, you own valuable COTs that gives you an advantage in claiming the valuable local trade income. When you get in a tech group that lets you fully convert your income into tech advancement, you catch up and then zoom past Europe like you were never even not in the Latin tech group.
 

Sleepyhead

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Criticisms tend to come from those who just choose not to accept geographic determinism and shift the balance towards cultural institutions (which if you read Diamond's book and compare to Acemoglu, Robinson and Johnson's book, you might find the statement a bit contradictory). Simply, Geography (through issues such as ease of sustaining population, climate, accessibility, and local predators) determines institutions and it's hard to argue against that fact - it's a question of whether you consider geography critically important, very important, or partially important.
In your view, how does geography 'determine' the difference between DDR and West Germany? Institutions are set by factors such as ideas, culture and history. Geography is simply an influence there, not a determinant.
 

Closet Skeleton

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In your view, how does geography 'determine' the difference between DDR and West Germany? Institutions are set by factors such as ideas, culture and history. Geography is simply an influence there, not a determinant.

The geographical differences between east and west Germany are there, as can be seen in how those areas developed differently when united under Prussia. That the created of a separate DDR made them a lot more pronounced shows that government is really important.

Here are two more articles from that website that talk about development of two particular countries in the context of their geographical locations - http://www.flowofhistory.com/units/west/14/FC92 - Russia; http://www.flowofhistory.com/units/west/14/FC93 - Dutch Republic.

So with Russia:
Poor resources with river trade routes
=backwards

Netherlands
Poor resources with river trade routes
=rich

Really doesn't work. They're making up reasons by looking at what happened and then working backwards. That's not sound scientific practice. That gives you a hypothesis, if that hypothesis can't be checked by comparing countries that developed in similar circumstances then it doesn't really tell you anything.

They then talk about how the Dutch got rich off the Baltic trade. The Russians were much better positioned to do that and it was also the major source of Novgorod's wealth. Then the Dutch expanded into the Mediterranean and traded with the Ottomans. This basically made them a successor to the Rus (who's lands were then in Poland and the Crimean Khanate) who frequently traded with Baghdad and Constantinople.

So I really don't see how the dutch were destined to be richer and more developed than Russia. Seems to me that the only reason the Dutch were the ones getting rich off the Baltic and Mediteranian rather than the Russians was the Russian's hostility to Crimea and the Turks and their failure to restore Novgorod after taking it. Which seems more like a case of 'the guy's focusing on money get money' than 'geography determined everything'. By uniting Novgorod with lands close to the Black Sea, the Tsardom of Russia was ideally placed to become a Baltic and Mediterranean trading power. All they needed to do was (a)promote free enterprise and (b) accommodate with the Turks. The only explanation I can see right now is that the Russians were stupid and the Dutch weren't.

Novgorod proves that the exact same kind of mercantile state could arise in Russia as in the Netherlands. It was trade and geography that led to the rise of Rus in the first place. Courland, Denmark and Sweden proved that even if only on a small level, colonisation of the Caribbean wasn't impossible for a Baltic state either.
 
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