Average casaulties done by units - values (infograph)

Average casaulties done by units - values (infograph)

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Zwirbaum

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I don't know if anyone would find it interesting or would find it useful, but in preparations for guide, I made this graphic with average damage dealt by regiments, against units of equal military tactics. Maybe there will be something that you'll find interesting? (Like cavalry to my surprise sucks most at tech 6 and 7, and it is less effective than infantry regiments at that gap)

 
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Oldpara

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Interesting, but somehow doesn't come along with my experience.

Looking at the chart at 4 lvl all infantry stack should fight almost as equals with mixed infantry+cav stack due to small difference in dmg and doing more dmg in fire phase. But we all know it's not a case - cavalry is king in early game and army 10 inf + 6 cav will usually easily destroy 16 only inf army (with the same generals, NI's and terrain bonuses off).
 

Zwirbaum

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Interesting, but somehow doesn't come along with my experience.

Looking at the chart at 4 lvl all infantry stack should fight almost as equal with mixed infantry+cav stack due to small difference in dmg and doing more dmg in fire phase. But we all know it's not a case - cavalry is king in early game and army 10 inf + 6 cav will usually easily destroy 16 only inf army (with the same generals, NI's and terrain bonuses off).
This is for starters average value. Secondly, cavalry have advantage of 1 shock pip over infantry (in some tech groups it may be different) which increases by extra 10/6,6 per day. Also because cavalry will have still some damage advantage, and with mentioned above shock pip bonus casaulties and enemy regiment will break faster. From that point cavalry have advantage of ability to flank for farther direction.

(Not to mention that casaulties are listed per day)

And not to mention that rolls can usually be much different than the standard average values and that with good roll in shock phase can really alter drastically everything.
 

Oldpara

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You work with the numbers I work with the "feelings" so I am not in position to argue really :)

Maybe this +1 shock pip do the work, but as I said - I feel that difference is much higher in total outcome.
Flanking is irrelevant in battles of equal stacks within combat width.

I admire your work. It makes people to think :)
 

Zwirbaum

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You work with the numbers I work with the "feelings" so I am not in position to argue really :)

Maybe this +1 shock pip do the work, but as I said - I feel that difference is much higher in total outcome.
Flanking is irrelevant in battles of equal stacks within combat width.

I admire your work. It makes people to think :)
You can't dismiss flanking range, because as soon as enemy line will start breaking you'll be able to capitalize it further with more and more regiments and will have domino effect (kinda ;))

Thanks for kind words! :)
 

ChildeR

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A die roll of 5 is very slightly above average (if it is still 0-9, I don't pay that much attention). I think potentially more useful would be to have an actual average over all possible die rolls.

You should also mention the assumption of an undamaged unit, I guess.

The weakness of those two levels of cavalry has been mentioned before and changes suggested, but I don't remember if the devs have said anything about it.

Edit: Are the numbers all against infantry of the same level? Or cavalry vs. cavalry or something?
Edit2: Or you don't take unit pips into account at all? That devalues cavalry quite a bit, because their shock pip advantage is quite large.
 
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DicRoNero

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Does that apply to western tech group only or is somehow universal? Because from my experince Stratioty and Trimariot Cavalry burn the opponents like fire, and they come exactly at level 6, where according to your graph they suck. I'm confused.
 

Zwirbaum

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A die roll of 5 is very slightly above average (if it is still 0-9, I don't pay that much attention). I think potentially more useful would be to have an actual average over all possible die rolls.

You should also mention the assumption of an undamaged unit, I guess.

The weakness of those two levels of cavalry has been mentioned before and changes suggested, but I don't remember if the devs have said anything about it.

Edit: Are the numbers all against infantry of the same level? Or cavalry vs. cavalry or something?
Edit2: Or you don't take unit pips into account at all? That devalues cavalry quite a bit, because their shock pip advantage is quite large.
Yes, I should use 4,5 as average value, but decided to stick with 5, and at the same time - reasons why now are quite unclear for me (partially maybe to include other influences), but actual differences in terms of casaulties would be at most 5 in terms of cavalry on tech 2-3 from 80 to 75 otherwise difference would be even smaller. - but yeah probably should use 4,5 as die roll, but because the casaulty formula is linear one, it will be decreased in proportion value (5 is in fact 8 while 4,5 is 7,5 so it's 7,5/8 = 93,75%)

I think assumption of undamaged unit is obvious, but you're right I should mention that as well :)

All number are assuming there is no pip advantage of one unit against another, and they don't have double damage taken like artillery. Cavalry or infantry doesn't matter.

And yes, we need to remember about unit pips differences, but then infograph would much, much, much bigger and it would lose more or less the primary role (according to me) of giving basic info what and where. And cavalry isn't exactly devalued here as you can see. (I made many other different calculations, like unit attacking unit from tech behind, and vice versa, and many other sometimes probably strange and unncessary calculations, but they will be probably revealed in time)
 
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Zwirbaum

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Does that apply to western tech group only or is somehow universal? Because from my experince Stratioty and Trimariot Cavalry burn the opponents like fire, and they come exactly at level 6, where according to your graph they suck. I'm confused.
This is more or less, averaged roll, which doesn't include any benefits of having more shock/fire pips, terrain, generals over other units. Timariot and Stratioti get extra shock pips in offensive which means extra ~5 casaulties per day in shock phase. However because rolls usually are not averaged, they may be flanking, different unit composition, damaged units and what not, combat ability, discipline, tactics difference, results will be different than averages.
 

ChildeR

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And yes, we need to remember about unit pips differences, but then infograph would much, much, much bigger and it would lose more or less the primary role (according to me) of giving basic info what and where. And cavalry isn't exactly devalued here as you can see.
Sure, it would add complexity. However, the equal pip assumption only really works for infantry where the difference is small. For cavalry the fact that so many of their pips are in shock, where their multiplier is best, is certainly significant. Most levels of cavalry have ~2 pip shock advantage over infantry, increasing casualties by >10%.

For artillery the difference is much smaller and can pretty much be ignored at least for western tech (they deal slightly more fire damage on some levels and less shock damage on almost all). Of course, mentioning whether the damage has already been halved for back rank is important.
 

Zwirbaum

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Sure, it would add complexity. However, the equal pip assumption only really works for infantry where the difference is small. For cavalry the fact that so many of their pips are in shock, where their multiplier is best, is certainly significant. Most levels of cavalry have ~2 pip shock advantage over infantry, increasing casualties by >10%.

For artillery the difference is much smaller and can pretty much be ignored at least for western tech. Of course, mentioning whether the damage has already been halved for back rank is important.
It's halved in fire phase, and no difference in shock phase. Yeah, backrow artillery is used here.

About cavalry and pips - partially I do agree, however there are different unit types, unit types across unit tech groups, also later artillery defensive benefit which taking into account shock pip advantage of cavalry, and not mentioning other stuff would be kinda misleading, and with taking all of it into account, holy smokes, my calculations into this would take a lot of space :p

Next thing - cavalry in most cases enter combat damaged from the fire phase, so it reduces their combat effectivness in shock phase also by a bit (I believe I got the result of around 20% effectivness reduction on later military technologies from infantry and artillery fire on cavalry regiment - but I was almost sleeping at that point, so it could be slightly wrong :p).

This is rather too much to include different factors right here, and make rather 'short' table, otherwise with explanations, and different assumptions (If X then Y, otherwise Z unless Q times P equals R) it would not be feasible to do in such short thing.

However when I will be making conclusions and guides, and implications or all that stuff, I will be taking into account different factors and/what not.

:)

Now I'm hungry, because I didn't eat anything since I woke up :p
 

Zwirbaum

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genrtul

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I once made a graph of unit pips per tech level taking into account tech bonuses, and what I got is very much like this table. It's nice to see there's nothing hidden at work here.
 

Restif

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Did something similar a few months ago, when i tried to see how much damages a unit could do against another one.


I didn't bother with Fire Dmg for Cav and Shock Dmg for Art as i consider them irrelevant.
 

ChildeR

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Did something similar a few months ago, when i tried to see how much damages a unit could do against another one.
Your numbers are very different from those in the OP. Could you clarify how your methods compare?
 

Restif

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I'll try to do my best.

I used the wiki formulas :

First, for the Dresult, i chose to remove the terrain and leader modifiers, which gave me Dresult = Droll + Attacking unit attack pips - Defending unit defense pips
As for the Droll, i took the middle ground of 4.5 (i know there is no such die roll but it doesn't really matter).

Then, i had to compare the difference in pips between the different units. As i didn't want to cover all units from all tech groups, i chose to focus on the western units and selected them acccording to this reasoning :

  • The infantery is here to absorb the damages, then i'll choose the unit with the most defensive pips (with and exeption at the tech 6/7, where i'll take the Longbow as the shock modifier for infantery is almost on par with the cavalry's one)
  • Cavalry's here to deal a lot of damages during shock phases, so i'll choose the unit with the most offensive shock pips

So, i selected the following units :


I could then calculate the Dresult in each case, and determine Base Casualties.

Here it seems that the wiki has been uptaded, in my formula i used this chart but now there is a different formula. It may explain partly why the results differ.
Anyway i got a Base Casualties of 36 with a Dresult of 4.5 (against 37.5 with the updated formula).

To get the final results, i then applied the formula Casualties = Base Casualties * Attacking unit modifier / Defending unit tactic.
I removed from the calculation things like Discipline, Combat Ability and Unit Strengh, to get exploitable results.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Interesting, but somehow doesn't come along with my experience.

Looking at the chart at 4 lvl all infantry stack should fight almost as equals with mixed infantry+cav stack due to small difference in dmg and doing more dmg in fire phase. But we all know it's not a case - cavalry is king in early game and army 10 inf + 6 cav will usually easily destroy 16 only inf army (with the same generals, NI's and terrain bonuses off).
You're forgetting flanking.
 

Zwirbaum

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