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Fletz

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Dear Devs and Paradoxians!

There were already many threads with many great suggestions and ideas regarding the warfare (manpower, peace-deals, attrition, leadership-resource generated by citizens etc. etc.) in IR.

I dont want to repeat all of them in the first posting and try to keep it simple and short at first. Arheo wrote that in Autumn there will be a War-Update for IR. I am really looking forward to it and really hope it will not just tweak stuff, but go innovative ways. In my opinion a own IR-Warfare-Style is the absolute key to make IR an outstandig Pdx-Game which no longer stays in the shadow of more popular Pdxgames for any longer. Thats why it is important also to think about unorthodox ways and may go new ways in this part of the game. A first big step was "food" which has great potential for a more sophisticated warfare which delivers more fun and challenge to the player. Its something which never existed in any other Pdx-Game before.

I hope Arheo or one of the other Devs could tells us about their Vision how Warfare in IR shall work in future so that the community is able to give feedback to this, because autumn is almost here. :)

First of all I like the tactics and unit-variety in IR and also the existence of "food".

What I personally miss - without going any further into details (=possible features) right now:
-) warfare shall make fun and be a challenge and should not feel like work which has to be done to make progress
-) that should be possible by reducing the amount of unfun-micromanagement (huge amount of troops and stacks have to be maneuvered and coordinated like for example organizing carpet-sieging)
-) ... and having just less battles but decisive ones. The outcome of these decisive battles should depending on many factors* so that its less a question of the mass of troops than of preparation* and strategical decision which were made in the time before the battle itself.**
-) peace deals which make great deals possible because who wins can dictate the conditions (making more historical outcome possible and challenging wars more rewarding).

*factors like: terrain, wheater, experience of troops & leader, personality of leader, right timing, food, morale which for example could depend on certain level of (pop-)happiness (if a cohort is originally from an un-/happy province or does not like the leader or ruler), professional cohorts vs drafted cohorts etc. I think a good orientation what warfare is about offers SunTzus Art of War (Planning, Leadership, Espionage beside the tactic during the battle itself).

I now there are many great ways and possible features to achieve this, but before I go into detail I would recommend to discuss it generally if you also see it like this or if you for example love the way how it is right now and just want the Devs to improve it. So the question is: Improving the status quo or would you prefer a advanced rework of warfare in IR?

**to be clear: i dont want 1 decisive battle per war, but that battles can be decisive, remarkable and memorable. So just less battles but making them weight more.
 
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Fletz

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I just realize, i should have made this thread in the main-IR-forum, but i thought because suggestions will follow i better make it here. Anyway i hope someone starts a discussion here with me. just to get an idea if my ideas are rubbish or brilliant. :confused:

In the first post i already mentioned what i think how warfare in IR could or should look like. Now i want to follow concrete features how to achieve this.

1. WARSCORE: Two things which should mainly be relevant for warscore: Conquering Capitals and crushing Armies (=winning Battles).
It should not matter anymore how man enemy territories you have occupied, because it doesnt care compared to the capitals (of a province) where the governors have their office. If you want to have a little conquer of land it should be enough to win a decisive battle and/or occupy the capitol of the province from which you want take some land or the whole province itself. Why?
If you change the weight of warscore massively to this two wargoals/aspects it wont be anymore necessary to split troops because you would be stupid to split your troops if you are looking for crushing the army of the enemy or just heading straight to the capital (as long as you are not afraid of forts in the back which could sabotage you or making troubles in other way)
Addendum: If you want to dictate a bitter peace to your enemy (making him your vassal, annexation, etc.) you need to conquer his state capital (where the ruler sits) and win decisive battles so that the enemy logically has no hope to change the outcome of the war and has to realize his chanceless. If you now say: "But then i would always annex all of the enemy..." I answer: The game should have mechanics which make this not always the best option in your peace negotations, because expanding fast should make problems because you get many new pops who wont like the new ruler commonly and will cause problems in the long run. Would be nice if you have the option to make the old ruler of the enemy to the new governor so you wont have such unhappy pops but instead a less loyal governor of a non-great-family.

2. REGULAR ARMY AND DRAFT-ARMY: Please introduce such a system. It has to offer a lot of possibilities - for example to flesh out the differences between high civilized states and tribes with their retinue system. How i image this system:
Think about the new CK3-System were you also will have some Men-at-arms (=Professional Regular Army) and a big amount of drafted "levies" =(Auxiliary Army).
Professional Regular Army are your expensive troops like they are already existing in IR right now. They shall have a high standard of morale, can get trained to gain experience, store this experience after wars, are always available and are the creme de la creme of your army. How large your regular army can be shall be a matter of wealth, tech and traditions. So tribes usually cant afford a regular army, because they need their people in the wilds and at the farms to get enough food for the winter. They compensate this with their retinue system which of course should not have the same quality as a real professional army of a civilized State.
So when a War is starting, you get attacked by an enemy whos troops outnumbering you, you better draft your auxiliary and mobilize.

2.1.: About the Auxiliary/Drafted Troops: Each province has a pool of max. cohorts to draft. The quantity depends on the amount of pops (mainly freemen). If you draft such a auxiliary cohort it should get attached to an regular army automatically (similar to the new introduced system in Stellaris where you no longer have to maneuver single troops to your main army). The base moral of these troops could depend on pop-happiness and loyalty of your province (so Auxiliary from a unhappy province is possible to get drafted but they wont be highly motivated to fight for you - unreliable). The base expierence and equipment of these auxiliary troops could depend on buildings (like for example a Training Camp), resources and civilization level of the province itself. The more auxiliary you draft from a province the more will it harm economy and happiness over time and of course these troops also want to get paid but still less than regular troops. Furthermore if you lose too many auxiliary during battles you may lose pops too. In this system the old school "manpower" may not longer be needed. Big advantage of this system: Huge Expansions or Conquest are risky in matter of money and happiness if the war takes too long. An Empire with unhappy pops will not be as defendable as a Empire with happy pops because only your Regular Army will usually be to small to win Great Wars so you need Auxiliary with higher standars of moral, expierence and equpiment.

3.: Additional to make this all reasonable: Armys in enemy territory should be noticeable slower so the usually outnumbered defender will not get rushed and defeated. As the attackers army goes deeper into enemy territory the risk of supply problems and unhappy events caused by bad wheater, unknown terrain, bad management by leadership, possible sabotage by unoccupied forts in the back, etc. can rise. On the other side if the defender is able to find the right timing and use this time to charge his army by fresh drafted auxiliary he may even can crush the enemy who has more troops but has already low morale, bad positioning and get suprised during the night caused of the high skills of the defenders army leader. The attacker who is usually always the favorite to win to war (otherwise he would have never declared war) can keep his favorite role if he takes care of enough supplies, is able to keep his troops with good morale and doesnt waste time if its not absolutely needed. This will also need a high skilled leader. So at the end its not only a question of amount of troops but also of the skills of generals and timing (beside of things like wheater and terrain). The attacker may try to make his troops force marching, but this also can cause a more rapid decay of moral but lowers the risk to get out of supplies or having a desastrous war during the coming winter in enemy territory.

This system would also work quiet well for a civil war. Illoyal Governors will draft the auxiliaries in their provinces and you will also have to fully mobilize your troops. Such a civil war can go for long time and cause massive economic damage especially if it also cause losing pops.

In such a system of warscore by capitals&decisive battles and making war much more risky and expensive but also rewarding (winner should be able to dictate the conditions of peace deal way easier) a Conquest of Gaul like Julius Ceaser did would be possible ingame.

Last but not least: What did I forget: The defender can also win, because if the Attacker does against all odds lose, the responsibles for this war will get huge loyalty and happiness problems in their state beside the huge costs if the war goes on for too long.

At the end i guess such a system could make leadership and their personal attributes much more meaningful and the wars also much easier to overview but challenging and more difficult too. What I think is the best "pro"-argument: Its much more interactive with other mechanics of the game (pop-happiness, loyalty, buildings, infrastructure).

So whats your opinion about this? I know it may would be a great change but also a great chance to make IR a game with warfare-game-mechanis which actually fit much better into ancient time than the enhanced EU4-System we have right now.
 
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Efimer

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The player should be able to tell the game how many troops he wants to raise as levy, which unit types, from which regions, etc
The AI isn't going to be happy...
 

Fletz

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The player should be able to tell the game how many troops he wants to raise as levy, which unit types, from which regions, etc
The AI isn't going to be happy...

Of course the player can choose which units to draft from the auxiliary pool... it should be mainly a matter of costs as it is now... why exactly do you think the AI will be unhappy?
 
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Fletz

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I forgot one additional feature to prevent players and AI to megablob just by successfully occupy one state capital of a state after another:
Administrative capacity! Something which already exists in Stellaris would be a very great feature! In this case you can only blob and keep stability by having enough
Administrative capacity which shall be delivered by citizens, tech and buildings (administrative offices mainly in civilized places to be found).

This would be awesome because its quite ridiculous that a tribe vom northern germany can megablob that easily even if the ruler and his fellas of this tribe have no idea how to administrate such a huge state. A more civlized State like Rome or Macedonian should rather have the capabilities to blob and keep stability at the beginning of the game. Please add this!
 
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Fletz

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After playing for more than 20h the new 1.4 IR I must say it has improved a lot in many ways but warfare is really a tough nut to crack for the devs. If I think about improvements and new features i also often find reason why they may not rise the funfactor significantly or may make new problems.

I'm afraid the IR-devs need to make radical changes and to think "out of the box" and not just to improve the current system. I wish them all the best to reach following targets:

-) better representation of ancient warfare
-) making conquest campaigns (from preparation for war to declaring war to battles and sieges up to the final peace negotiations) a real outstanding fun factor of the game.

I even thought about "minigames" during decisive battles (where battles get intervened by player) , but that would be very unparadox and I may wouldnt like it either. Maybe making battles lasting longer and influence the results of battles/sieges by events? Its really a tough nut.
 
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Fletz

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Yeah I hope it too... but is there enough time left? I am really looking forward rreading something what they actually plan for 1.6.
 
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Fletz

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Something I just realized:

I usually play with big armies instead of many little armies. Thats also how i would wish warfare would work... big armies having decisive and remarkable battles instead what is going on right now on my campaign map: dozens of small allied and enemy troops bustling in all directions.

But there is a big problem regarding loyalty if you have few instead of many armies: the power base (created by commanding cohorts) will not shared that much and will be hold by fewer guys which causes loyalty problems easily.

Thats something which also have to be changed if its wanted to make fewer and bigger armies for AI and Players reasonable.

I would suggest: Every army needs more than just one commander but also at least 2 officers who assist the commander. :)
 

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I really like your idea of draft armies for war.
As you said it is a big change of paradigm, but maybe this is what Imperator warfare needs to feel right.

Also it's a nice way to differentiate different levels/types of civilization.
A long draft would hurt far less tribes than a late Rome for instance.
Maybe this could make that we don't need the gamey clan troupes and 50% more expensive regular troupes for Tribes?
 

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Well I think what you suggest is not simple enough and likely you have overlooked alot of things. I think you should take a look, rework the suggestion, make it simpler but keep the depth and also take more account for stuff like how well can the ai understand the system.
 

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@Denkt: I guess it sounds more complicate that it is because of my mediocre english skills and my writing style. :rolleyes:

But of course I am not a professional game designer and dont have the time to make a very detailed new warfare game design which can completely replace the status quo of warfare.

But back to the bullet points what should be achieved:
-) making wars to something remarkable, rewarding and challenging!

What I think how that could be achieved:
-) less armys*
-) slowing down the "speed"... if a single war should have just some decisive battles and sieges of capitals than these things should be much more comprehensive and dynamic**

These two things could probably get achieved in different ways or with different features and game mechanics.

*i just played IR, i should have made an Screenshot. There was an War onngoing an the map was totally crowded by dozens of little generic "all-the-same"-armys... or were you ever afraid of an outstanding and mighty enemy commander or legion? and everytime a battle was won another one or two were started and another dozen of troops came around... the status quo is really unfun and confusing. If there are no mountains I actually do not really care... just send my army stack there and do one siege afzer another und one battle after another and after some time I have won. Its never really surprising. Nothing unexpecged can happen. I do not even care if its winter, spring or autumn. I do not have to care much how high the losses are... there is always manpower and even if not its only a matter of time... nothing really to lose... no real challenge...

**there are probably infinite possibilities to achieve this, but it will need probably a complete overhaul of warfare in IR.
 

Denkt

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Knowing there is an issue and knowing how to solve the issue is to very different things. I think you simply try to do Everything in a single post which is generally not a good thing. Try to work in small steps instead as it is much easier to understand how it will affect stuff like the ai.

I have not posted a good suggestion yet so don't ask me how to do it because I don't really know.
 

Basileus2

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I'd love to have a mini order of battle so that we could simulate actual legions - cap army sizes at a certain level but if you have researched specific technologies or have leaders with certain traits you can combine said 'legions' / armies into larger ones, i.e. consular armies.

This can vary per region / culture / population size.
 

Moments Hunter

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We need flavour, something that will differentiate states, cultures from each other. What we will get? Modifiers!
Anyway, please see below:

1. Manpower and scale of warfare
Historical wars in ancient times were not WW1/2. Imperator suffers by its ridiculous numbers.
Delete Manpower. POPS represents a recruitable population - problem with big armies solved. No caps needed because it will tank your economy, your research, your slaves will revolt. Wars should not slow down - they should be quick. Wars were very demanding to economies of all states back then.

2. UI
New window in a Military View for army building - army macro builder.

3. Warfare itself
I do not have a problem with calculations and logic behind battles. But there are some issues. We are stuck with the PDX “battle” system - when two enemy armies meet, battle happens and the game calculates in turns and all the logic behind. Every turn takes one day of game time. As such we have “battles” which can last even months. I suggest to rename Battles to Campaigns.

From certain quantity of soldiers in the Campaign (in old terms battle) game should offer an event chain which would simulate battle decisions (for example giving chance to change tactics).

4. Flavour
Battle tactics do not make sense because every state has the same battle tactics. No. Just no. Decrease the number of tactics per state and differentiate them more. Celtic and Germanic tribes should start with “horde”, “raid”, “charge”, “ambush”, “wedge” tactics and slowly learn through military tradition some more sophisticated tactics (Caesar said Celts were able to form battle formations). Other more civilized culture groups should have more tactics but here is the thing - they should not be all the same for Greek states, Romans, Carthagians, Maurya and so on.

5. Bordergore begone!
Please fix this, PDX. In my last game Macedons won over Phrygia and their territorial gain was in the middle of Phrygia (sea province but still hundres of kilometers away from any Macedon's land). I stopped playing after that.
 

Moments Hunter

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*factors like: terrain, wheater, experience of troops & leader, personality of leader, right timing, food, morale which for example could depend on certain level of (pop-)happiness (if a cohort is originally from an un-/happy province or does not like the leader or ruler), professional cohorts vs drafted cohorts etc. I think a good orientation what warfare is about offers SunTzus Art of War (Planning, Leadership, Espionage beside the tactic during the battle itself).

This - POPS happiness tied to morale! Yes, so much of this. Connection of the games systems is what Imperator needs.
 

Gurkhal

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I really like Point 2. Although I feel that there should perhaps be some kind of system for how citizen armies are raised as different empires did things a bit different depending on their circumstances, and also to ensure that for example the Seleukids can't raise invincible super armies but be restricted to a much smaller pool of recruits for both professional and citizen forces.
 

Assurbanipal

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I love the idea for drafted troops. Not many nations in this time period had big standing armies. Also you should land your veterans and call them up in time of need with some consequences. There could be a whole system around it increasing the depth of civil wars, population happiness, military experience etc.

I had an idea of traditional (culture tied) cohorts. The idea is that (for example) steppe cultures make very good horse archers (it’s a traditional cohort for them) so as you conquer pops of this culture there is a reason for keeping them unassimilated and making empires more multicultural. As for other examples historically Gallic nobility served as heavy cav (so this units could have a discipline bonus) and Tibetan solders should have a bonus if fighting in mountains/hills. This is a solution for roman auxiliary troops and famous ancient mercs (Balearic sling men, Cretan archers etc). So the cohorts should be from a specific culture.

[I spoke about it in a thread I just made about pop variation, can’t post a link but feel free to check it out.]

The other thing is that there should be a use for the more useless cohort types. Like light infantry and archers should perform better than heavy infantry and cav in rough terrain. You guard a mountain pass with light troops, not heavy.
 
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Denkt

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Here is an example of auxilia effectivness:
They are like special forces in HOI4 game term, specialized to fight in specific terrain types and do it really well.
 
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