Automatic Level Scaling - Please, don't.

[DMXMuff]

Dunaedine, it is disheartening that there is little developer interaction here. It'd be nice to hear reasoning for certain decisions and a more in depth analysis of what "level scaling" means in the context of Tyranny. But maybe I am asking for too much.

Which leads me to Zarine making some good points. That type of level scaling described is certainly better than your standard level scaling, but, in my opinion, good level scaling is still less than ideal.

 

[Wulfram]

If you're going to have ridiculously fast power gain, and basically all RPGs do, then level scaling is good.

 

[Dunaedine]

If you're going to have ridiculously fast power gain, and basically all RPGs do, then level scaling is good.

It is 2 disconnected problems. The fast power gain can be due to a bad design. In this case, the level scaling is a dirty fix. Furthermore, this fix would probably create others problems and inconsistencies (already listed before). But the fast power gain can be due to the story, and in this case, you want to feeling your power. It is logical you can crush majority of yours ennemies. In this case, level scaling risk to totally destroy this feeling. And Tyranny is clearly oriented to the second case, you are at the start a powerful character.

The fast power gain problem of RPG is probably linked with the original very gamey level/class design of D&D and many subsequent RPG system after. There is other system in Pen & Paper RPG without this problem, but video game RPG are nearly all stuck in this old design.

 

[Wulfram]

It is 2 disconnected problems. The fast power gain can be due to a bad design. In this case, the level scaling is a dirty fix. Furthermore, this fix would probably create others problems and inconsistencies (already listed before). But the fast power gain can be due to the story, and in this case, you want to feeling your power. It is logical you can crush majority of yours ennemies. In this case, level scaling risk to totally destroy this feeling. And Tyranny is clearly oriented to the second case, you are at the start a powerful character.

The fast power gain problem of RPG is probably linked with the original very gamey level/class design of D&D and many subsequent RPG system after. There is other system in Pen & Paper RPG without this problem, but video game RPG are nearly all stuck in this old design.

The fact that we start powerful to me suggests that fast power gain doesn't make much sense. After all, we should be starting from a strong base and thus not have a huge amount to gain. Fast power gain is most sensible when you're doing a farm boy with hidden power type plot.

And similarly, if we start with a character that's supposed to be powerful then there shouldn't be large areas of the world where many of the inhabitants are more powerful than us at the start of the game, yet if we don't have level scaling then that will most likely be true

 

[Yenzen]

If you're going to have ridiculously fast power gain, and basically all RPGs do, then level scaling is good.

Then just disable power gain. If a standard grunt getting is always equally challenging regardless of what level you are, then why bother with a levelling system at all?

 

[Wulfram]

Then just disable power gain. If a standard grunt getting is always equally challenging regardless of what level you are, then why bother with a levelling system at all?

A levelling system allows for a steady increase in complexity as the player gains new abilities - which both is a good way of learning, and helps keep the combat fresh as new abilities change how you operate - and lets the player customise their character without dumping a ton of choices on the player at the start when they don't really understand how the rules work.

Now straightforward mathematical advancement is IMO pretty pointless, and could well be done away with. But developers seem to think that players need to see their numbers getting bigger.

 

[Anthedon]

Level scaling is cancer. Even in otherwise much vaunted Wizardry 8 it's a joke.

Is there any detailed information yet how it's going to work in Tyranny?

 

[Raye94]

A levelling system allows for a steady increase in complexity as the player gains new abilities - which both is a good way of learning, and helps keep the combat fresh as new abilities change how you operate - and lets the player customise their character without dumping a ton of choices on the player at the start when they don't really understand how the rules work.

Now straightforward mathematical advancement is IMO pretty pointless, and could well be done away with. But developers seem to think that players need to see their numbers getting bigger.

An increase in combat complexity without an increase in power relative to the enemy after player advancement results in more effort required to achieve victory against the same enemies. If this is not the result then the increased complexity is inconsequential as it can be safely ignored, due to coasting by with a minimalistic approach to combat.

There are certainly methods to mitigate the problems presented by an open world that do not involve level scaling, success need not always be defined by combat. If the player starts are a high power level the world can still be populated with mundane foes. Sometimes such foes may pose no threat and be easily vanquished while other times they may have tactical advantages, overwhelming numbers, or rare and potent allies to oppose you with.

Also, if power gain is slow due to a high relative starting power then level scaling makes even less sense. Scaling will just nullify player progress that much more effectively when it's minimal progress to begin with.

 

[marianojoey]

Regarding level scaling you need to consider that there are multiple way to implement it and it really changes the feel it has.

For instance, if the scaling is saying : add X% HP, X% damage...
This scaling is bad from an immersion point of view bcause there is no reason the wolf you first killed easily is now much harder (at least considering how much you progressed)

If the scaling is changing the enemies, it goes way better.
Here instead of the mage apprentise, It's directly the mage master that I encounter.
It makes sense as the master would know that his apprentise wouldn't be good enough.

Obviously it's harder to make it nicely as it might need new texts and behaviors but it would not feel like there is a level scaling.

Actually, that's the kind of crap Bethesda does from Oblivion forward. You walk around, you find rats and some imps. Come back several levels later and you find bears and dremora... It's lazy. There is no feeling of progress. And since everything (even bosses) are leveled with you, there is no real reason to "level up" (many players recommend finishing Oblivion at level 5 or so...).

Adding HP is THE WORST kind of "difficulty" curve you can have in any game. As a matter of fact, it's a problem D&D has been having for decades now, and people tend to follow in their steps.

And I agree, there seems to be zero intention from any official part to clarify any of the points being threaded this days on the forums... sad, really sad.

 

[Noxou]

I created an account just for this post...

I was interested in Tyranny for a reason: i wanted to support the renewal of isometric RPGs. I backed Pillars, Wasteland 2 and Torment. I planned to buy it because i love isometric RPGs and because i want more of them (only on GOG though). And now i see two threads in these forums. The first is about the fact that Tyranny will have no friendly fire. This basically means that i can cast fireballs or meteors in the face of my character, he will always come out of the smoke afterwards unscathed, very much like this cigar guy in the series "The A team" (wikipedia tells me this is the english name of the series, thx wikipedia ). Is there any need for me to explain why this is ridiculous? I guess not.

The second thread is this one. About... level scaling? wtf? I second everyone in this thread to say it's awful, total bullshit. I hate level scaling so much, i can't even tell. Even more than the lack of friendly fire. And all the reasons why i hate it are very well explained by others here. No need for me to detail further my point. Unless someone comes out here and explain me how this is a good idea for Tyranny, i will be quite extreme on this topic.

Now i have a question: Did people at Paradox thought it would be cool to create an isometric RPG while inviting onboard all the shitty casual game mechanics of lame AAA action RPGs most of us, isometric RPGs players, hate? If this is the case, let me tell you one thing, Paradox: There was no need to create an iso RPG, just create a new Mario Bross, full of nonsenses that are actually cool for platform games, but not for roleplaying games. Because what makes a good old iso RPG is not just the isometric viewpoint. Why do i have to state this in the first place? I'm stating the obvious.

And one last thing. I really, really want developpers to stop imagining that game mechanics are more important that the R in RPG. Stop with the "game mechanics for the sake of game mechanics". Stop inviting dumb mechanics just because "oh yeah, it's fucking convenient, players will love it".

No, i don't.

PS: I need to add something though. Even though my comment is about disappointment, i will thank Paradox and Obsidian for communicating about the truth, and not lying like other publishers before release. Keep on with honesty, this is probably one of the most important thing ever, that will allow you to have your customers standing beside you.

 

[Yenzen]

I created an account just for this post...

I was interested in Tyranny for a reason: i wanted to support the renewal of isometric RPGs. I backed Pillars, Wasteland 2 and Torment. I planned to buy it because i love isometric RPGs and because i want more of them (only on GOG though). And now i see two threads in these forums. The first is about the fact that Tyranny will have no friendly fire. This basically means that i can cast fireballs or meteors in the face of my character, he will always come out of the smoke afterwards unscathed, very much like this cigar guy in the series "The A team" (wikipedia tells me this is the english name of the series, thx wikipedia ). Is there any need for me to explain why this is ridiculous? I guess not.

The second thread is this one. About... level scaling? wtf? I second everyone in this thread to say it's awful, total bullshit. I hate level scaling so much, i can't even tell. Even more than the lack of friendly fire. And all the reasons why i hate it are very well explained by others here. No need for me to detail further my point. Unless someone comes out here and explain me how this is a good idea for Tyranny, i will be quite extreme on this topic.

Now i have a question: Did people at Paradox thought it would be cool to create an isometric RPG while inviting onboard all the shitty casual game mechanics of lame AAA action RPGs most of us, isometric RPGs players, hate? If this is the case, let me tell you one thing, Paradox: There was no need to create an iso RPG, just create a new Mario Bross, full of nonsenses that are actually cool for platform games, but not for roleplaying games. Because what makes a good old iso RPG is not just the isometric viewpoint. Why do i have to state this in the first place? I'm stating the obvious.

And one last thing. I really, really want developpers to stop imagining that game mechanics are more important that the R in RPG. Stop with the "game mechanics for the sake of game mechanics". Stop inviting dumb mechanics just because "oh yeah, it's fucking convenient, players will love it".

No, i don't.

PS: I need to add something though. Even though my comment is about disappointment, i will thank Paradox and Obsidian for communicating about the truth, and not lying like other publishers before release. Keep on with honesty, this is probably one of the most important thing ever, that will allow you to have your customers standing beside you.

I don't think the devs bother going to this forum. Obsidian is not Paradox when it comes to forum interaction and for some completely unknown reason, they moved here from their own forums (where you would expect to find most RPG fans?) despite there being almost no activity in this game subforum.

 

[Noxou]

Well, i had to post it. You know, like in "at least, i wrote it down before release". I don't know if Paradox devs come often here. What i know is that Obsidian devs came along every day during Pillars developement. But it's true it was a kickstarter project. And they had some harsh days because of some people who would rant without taking much time to breath at times. I feel for them .

 

[Adlerson]

Couldn't agree more. Level scaling is seriously making me reconsider my interest in Tyranny. In games nothing gives you a sense of power like revisiting areas you once struggled with and just rolling through it.

 

[Alpinia]

Couldn't agree more. Level scaling is seriously making me reconsider my interest in Tyranny. In games nothing gives you a sense of power like revisiting areas you once struggled with and just rolling through it.

I hate hearing the words "level scaling" from a developer, but when it's well done the game can still let you do this. Many RPGs with lvl-scaling only does it on a limited scale. Like designating a hard area's monsters as lvl 15-20, while an easier one has monsters with lvl 1-5 or something.

Keep in mind that "everyones" favorite RPG, BG2, also has limited lvl scaling in the form of more, and more powerful types of monster in an area when you encountered them at a higher lvl.

 

[Yamamuro Takeda]

Autoscaling reminds me about fallout 3. 20 lvl - deathclaw everywere...

 

[Noxou]

Autoscaling reminds me about fallout 3. 20 lvl - deathclaw everywere...

Yep, this. Exactly. Or power armor guys, even though you may have destroyed their base already. This is the worst type of level scaling ever, coupled with nonsensical respawns. The most outrageous and lazy in history (though, it's kind of what i would have expected from Bethesda). Still, i'm waiting for an explanation of why some sort of level scaling is a good idea for Tyranny (and what sort of level scaling we are talking about). If not on these forums, then, in some preview, interview or whatnot. I won't condemn the game without knowing anything about this matter, but i won't buy it either until i have my answers."level scaling" is really a pair of words that hurt my mouth.

 

[marianojoey]

Indeed. My thoughts exactly. I won't buy this game until both issues (level scaling and friendly fire) are answered by the developers (none of them seem to read the forums here, even if their own homepage takes you here...).

 

[Tekadiel]

I am also against level scaling even though a certain mixture might work. Enemy encounters having more grunts instead of tougher grunts might be an option. Part of the problem might be that the game starts on the assumption that the main character is not some young up-start but an already powerful being (at least politically). Therefore it would be odd if the MC can not travel certain provinces for fear of to tough enemies.

 

[SuperBearNut]

I think level scaling gets lot of bad rep, because when its really well done you usually never even notice it and thus you hear only about the bad cases. As Alpinia before me mentioned, BG2 also used level scaling. And so did Morrowind. And many other games. In fact, pick any game that you think does not use level scaling. Chances are, it does use it in some form or another, its just using it well.

"Mechanic by itself is not usually bad, its it´s implementation that can be problematic."

What I mean to say, don't judge game just because you heard it uses level scaling, judge it when you get more (non vague) information (for example, whether the scaling in question is bad)

 

[Rated_R]

Level scaling is the bane of all RPG's and they always remove the shine from your gear, skills, progression.

Friendly fire is one of the best ways to add verisimilitude. Without FF the combat loses its excitement. (I heard we're losing this mechanic too)

Stick to making hardcore RPG's Obsidian and if you feel the need these types of options must be present in your final product simply make them options players can toggle on (or off depending how you look at it).

Always go old-school with your game design and mechanics or don't bother anymore... you're pretty much the last of your kind out there. Everything else is just eye candy fluff with no challenge level.