Authors of the Shakespeare plays & the Bank of England

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Mechanical Franz

Private
31 Badges
Apr 6, 2016
22
10
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Significant English lineages worth discussing here (no original research in primary sources required) include those that interconnect in the matters of the Shakespeare literature authorship and the financial control of the country established in the 18th century. Quigley's book Anglo-American Establishment, concerned with 20th century history, begins by stressing the political dominance of the "Cecil Bloc" of families in the late 19th century which orbited around Robert Arthur Talbot Gascoyne-Cecil (1830-1903), Viscount Cranborne and Marquess of Salisbury. The Cecil family seems to have arisen as Welsh supporters of the Tudors, and the first to obtain both the Cranborne and Salisbury titles was Sir Robert Cecil, secretary of state to QE1.

As it happens all three primary candidates to the Shakespearean authorship were closely linked by marriage to this Robert Cecil, the son of William Cecil Lord Burghley and of Mildred Cooke, sometimes acclaimed the most learned English woman of her day. Mildred, daughter of Sir Anthony Cooke, had three other well educated and talented sisters ;
Elizabeth, mother of the Hoby brothers
Anne, the mother of Sir Francis Bacon
Catherine the linguist, first wife of Sir Henry Killigrew, a close ally of Robert Cecil in the late Elizabethan court ; they were brothers-in-law.

Robert Cecil's sister Anne was the first wife of Edward De Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, long the favourite alternate Shakespeare along with Bacon.
In 2005 Brenda James and William Rubinstein published the definitive identification of the author, The Truth Will Out : Unmasking the Real Shakespeare. Their man is Sir Henry Neville (c.1564-1615), and their evidence and arguments pretty much conclusive. Neville's wife Anne was a daughter of Henry Killigrew and Catherine Cooke. So that all the arguments assembled over the years about the status and learning of the author (while important and compelling enough to disprove William Shakespeare himself) are more or less irrelevant in separating Bacon, De Vere and Neville, who all moved in the most influential and learned circles of the Cooke and Cecil families. Bacon and De Vere can be excluded on other grounds ; the former a prolific but talentless writer, while De Vere (1550-1604) died too early to author the plays composed and performed after 1604.
 

Gil galad

Monarchist
57 Badges
Jul 11, 2002
607
648
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
What are you trying to say exactly and how does the BofE come into this?
 

Yakman

City of Washington, District of Columbia
26 Badges
Jan 5, 2004
6.315
14.269
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • For The Glory
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
Oh no.
 

stevieji

Squadron Leader
28 Badges
Dec 17, 2013
647
10.955
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
It's obviously one of those experimental AI projects - IckeBot - something like that.

Don't worry, as long as no one responds directly it should be fine.
 

alpreb

Captain
11 Badges
Jul 2, 2005
315
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
Never understood the argument that Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare's works. I remember reading about a few alternatives in a foreword to "Hamlet" and it seemed like a silly thought.
 

nerd

hippie
6 Badges
Jun 3, 2010
628
192
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
As it happens all three primary candidates to the Shakespearean authorship were closely linked by marriage to this Robert Cecil, the son of William Cecil Lord Burghley and of Mildred Cooke, sometimes acclaimed the most learned English woman of her day. Mildred, daughter of Sir Anthony Cooke, had three other well educated and talented sisters ;
Elizabeth, mother of the Hoby brothers
Anne, the mother of Sir Francis Bacon
Catherine the linguist,
first wife of Sir Henry Killigrew, a close ally of Robert Cecil in the late Elizabethan court ; they were brothers-in-law.
.
I find it odd that the people who would have the greatest motive to use a pseudonym aren't even considered.
 

Mechanical Franz

Private
31 Badges
Apr 6, 2016
22
10
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
What are you trying to say exactly and how does the BofE come into this?
Not trying to say anything exactly, so much as initiate discussion of several historical topics which may or may not interweave. And to further my own assessment of various secondary sources (mod. authors). Contribute or not, that's up to you.

The Cecil family is particularly interesting from the diachronic persistence of the titles awarded by James I to Robert Cecil and the great power and influence wielded by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903) three centuries after the Elizabethan ministerial father and son team, William and Robert.
On the one hand it's notable to find certain claims by the La Rouchean author Christina Huth confirmed in the case of the Cecil family ; she maintains that the success of the Henry VIII + Thomas Cromwell reign of terror in establishing the church of England may partly be attributed to their judicious redistribution of confiscated church properties among minor families on the rise. While a Britannica article on the Cecils (authored by O.B., apparently = Oswald Barron) includes the following comment on the father of William Cecil Lord Burghley : " A gentleman of the privy chamber and sometime sheriff of Rutland, Richard Cecil had his share at the distribution of abbey lands, St. Michael's priory in Stamford being among the grants made to him. "

Another source of great interest is Eustache Mullins, the least literary but most historical among the many famous pupils of the incarcerated poet Ezra Pound. At Pound's behest Mullins researched and authored the first history on the establishment of the private banking system which has controlled US finance since 1914, known as the Federal Reserve System. There is now a whole genre on this and related topics. Mullins' initial book, Secrets of the Federal Reserve (1952), was ordered not just banned but burned by the occupying authorities in its 1955 German edition. Reminiscent of Macmillan's suppression of its own publication of Professor Quigley's Tragedy and Hope.
With such a background his investigations of the Bank of England become somewhat noteworthy. In his 1987 volume, The Curse of Canaan. A Demonology of History, Mullins includes a summary of the William of Orange's seizure of the English throne (1688) which was the immediate prelude to the English Bill of Rights (1689), and later the chartering of the Bank of England (1694), a private business which gradually took control of English state finances during the 18th century. Mullins makes the striking comment (p. 59) that those great houses which supported William III's expulsion of James II were not merely well rewarded at the time but " have been the wealthiest families in England ever since ".
Those he lists include Duke of Marlborough (John Churchill), Lord Shrewsbury (Charles Talbot), Duke of Sunderland, Duchess of Portsmouth, Earl of Devonshire. However he only specifically links Talbot to the Bank of England (p. 59 again) : " Lord Shrewsbury became one of the first stockholders in the Bank of England, investing ten thousand pounds." Phew, that's a lot of money in 17th century, and for just one investment. Although chicken feed compared to the circa 350,000 pounds he claims were paid in bribes to Marlborough by the Amsterdam bankers de Medina and Machado (p. 58).

It's not Mullins, but the far greater scholar Carroll Quigley who attests to the great wealth and influence of the Lord Salisbury named Robert Arthur Talbot Gascoyne-Cecil (The Anglo-American Establishment, p. 15). Quigley includes in the " great nexus of power, influence and privilege controlled by the Cecil family " the Cavendish family (Lords Hartington, Dukes of Devonshire) and several other houses boasting comital or similar rank : Lyttelton, Wemyss, Wyndham, Grosvenor, Balfour, Palmer, and Gathorne-Hardy.
 

Mechanical Franz

Private
31 Badges
Apr 6, 2016
22
10
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Never understood the argument that Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare's works. I remember reading about a few alternatives in a foreword to "Hamlet" and it seemed like a silly thought.
Ok, the thought began with the townsfolk of Stratford on Avon who scoffed at the notion that Shakespeare wrote anything when the plays first really became famous (18th century I think). To get to grips with the compass of the many issues involved you'd need to read at least one of the specialist books attempting to identify the real author. This has become the really difficult problem. A good starting point might be the website of an org called The Shakespeare Authorship Trust ;
http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/candidates.htm
 

alpreb

Captain
11 Badges
Jul 2, 2005
315
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
Ok, the thought began with the townsfolk of Stratford on Avon who scoffed at the notion that Shakespeare wrote anything when the plays first really became famous (18th century I think). To get to grips with the compass of the many issues involved you'd need to read at least one of the specialist books attempting to identify the real author. This has become the really difficult problem. A good starting point might be the website of an org called The Shakespeare Authorship Trust ;
http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/candidates.htm

After giving it a whirl... ehhh...

The main arguments against him seem to be a lack of information, which is a really, really bad argument to begin with.

Outside of nobility, there are, at best, three types of information about any person: The day they were baptised, the day they died (both conveniently on their gravestones too) and legal documents including disputes, wills, penalties punishments etc.

There are no letters, diaries, personal tax records, short stories, novels, business models from the common folk and neither should you expect it from Shakepeare.

The fact that the 4 page "Declaration of Reasonable Doubt About the Identity of William Shakespeare" on the site mentions 70 (non-literary) documents with Shakespeare makes him far more recorded than what an Englishmen could expect.
 

am300307

Colonel
50 Badges
Aug 17, 2009
866
498
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Iron Cross
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • 1
Reactions:

Mechanical Franz

Private
31 Badges
Apr 6, 2016
22
10
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
After giving it a whirl... ehhh...

The main arguments against him seem to be a lack of information, which is a really, really bad argument to begin with.

Outside of nobility, there are, at best, three types of information about any person: The day they were baptised, the day they died (both conveniently on their gravestones too) and legal documents including disputes, wills, penalties punishments etc.

There are no letters, diaries, personal tax records, short stories, novels, business models from the common folk and neither should you expect it from Shakepeare.

The fact that the 4 page "Declaration of Reasonable Doubt About the Identity of William Shakespeare" on the site mentions 70 (non-literary) documents with Shakespeare makes him far more recorded than what an Englishmen could expect.

Well I did say that that website should be a starting point. Besides the many books advocating one or other real authors (and there's also a group-authorship theory) there are others arguing at length why Shakespeare wrote neither the plays nor the poems published under his name. The most acclaimed and admired among these is Diana Price, Shakespeare's Unorthodox Biography : New Evidence of an Authorship Problem (2001). Another fairly recent one, John Michell, Who Wrote Shakespeare? (1996). If you read one of these you wouldn't make such awful mistakes as in your comments above.
I'll repeat the suggestion that you ought to read at least one book on this topic which goes deeply into the evidence and issues, and outline a couple of reasons why you've got it so wrong ;

First, there's not just nobility and everyone else, but a whole forest of gentry and middle class aspiring for titles and real wealth. Shakespeare himself had a noble lineage on his mother's side and small land holdings in Birkeshire connected to the Nevilles. Besides his career as an actor and producer of plays in London and nearby, he eventually became not just property owner but a property developer at Stratford, a grain merchant and a money lender. This is why more is known about William Shakespeare than your average peasant or stall owner. He became a wealthy man with a high business profile in the Stratford area. His will survives, along with the catalogue of wealth he bequeathed. At his death he owned no books. Thus we are expected to believe that the most literate man in all English history with a vocabulary approx double that of his nearest rival dies in a big house (a mansion in truth) with not a single book to read or browse from time to time, not even one copy or one ms. of any Shakespearean play or Sonnet. In fact no literary manuscript of a single page of any Shakespearean work has ever been found. This is the biggest clue that something highly unusual took place -- that there was a suppression and cover up of some sort ; a deliberate destruction of authorship evidence once the initial official collected editions were completed.

As an actor and producer Shakespeare rubbed shoulders with elements of the nobility who were interested in the stage and wrote for it themselves ; most uncontroversially Lord Oxford. So yes, one should expect the survival of letters and documents attesting his life as an author if he were one. Authors are literate folk by definition who write a lot and by that act produce written records of themselves and their works ; it's preposterous to group them with the non-literate in this respect.
For these reasons corroborating evidence for every major and minor writer of the epoch has been retrieved easily and in some abundance -- in many cases these documents have been discovered in the (fruitless) search for such evidence pertaining to Shakespeare himself.
In a notable summation of these researches Diana Price remarked :
Scholars have retrieved literary fragments for those lesser contemporaries with far fewer man-hours and fewer research grants behind them. Still, in every case, the personal documents reveal writing as a vocation for the individuals in question. If we had the sort of evidence for [Shakespeare] that we have for his colleagues, there would be no authorship debate.

 
  • 1
Reactions:

Herbert West

Field Marshal
64 Badges
Jul 24, 2006
3.726
12.711
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH
  • Victoria 2