Authority: Will decrees cost any resources (goods, pops, money) whatsoever?

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Vohen

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The way I interpreted this mechanic, decrees would be simply a way for the executive to bypass the legislative, with the actual process involving goods, money and pops still being the same as if done by law, which would be appropriate for more authoritarian governments, but after discussing it a bit in another thread and re-reading some developer's comments, it is actually not clear at all that this will be the case.
This particular line here worries me to no end:
it's a decree (one of many different types) issued in a state to its population, and doesn't cost the government anything other than the Authority to ensure its people are following its directives.

So, in the example given in the DD, how exactly does "road maintenance" work there?
It was mentioned that there is a way through decree using authority and other ways will come later, but what is the actual process?
Do you need pops to maintain that road, do they use any good (like basic tools, which is apparently a good we will have in the game), and who's paying for those goods and wages?
I seriously hope the process isn't simply "spend authority" -> "roads maintained", with the head of state summoning good roads from the ether, I really don't want to derail this topic into yet another mana discussion, but this would seem exactly like the sort of thing EU4 would do.
 
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Meanmanturbo

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The way I interpreted this mechanic, decrees would be simply a way for the executive to bypass the legislative, with the actual process involving goods, money and pops still being the same as if done by law, which would be appropriate for more authoritarian governments, but after discussing it a bit in another thread and re-reading some developer's comments, it is actually not clear at all that this will be the case.
This particular line here worries me to no end:


So, in the example given in the DD, how exactly does "road maintenance" work there?
It was mentioned that there is a way through decree using authority and other ways will come later, but what is the actual process?
Do you need pops to maintain that road, do they use any good (like basic tools, which is apparently a good we will have in the game), and who's paying for those goods and wages?
I seriously hope the process isn't simply "spend authority" -> "roads maintained", with the head of state summoning good roads from the ether, I really don't want to derail this topic into yet another mana discussion, but this would seem exactly like the sort of thing EU4 would do.

I think in this case it represents corvee labour.

"Keep the roads good or else!" kind of deal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvée
 
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Kaspar Osraige

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It says it costs nothing to government except for authority for the pops to follow orders. We'll likely still need pops and resources allocated though.
 

ikki

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corvee, extra free labor forced from "citizens". Do as your told or the state will murder you.
Easier job than war for free.
 
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Vohen

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I think in this case it represents corvee labour.

"Keep the roads good or else!" kind of deal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvée
corvee, extra free labor forced from "citizens". Do as your told or the state will murder you.
Easier job than war for free.
I see, I guess that takes care of wages and pops.
And I suppose even in a state without peasants to levy, one could abstract it away using the penal system or something, which could itself be abstracted by dependents.
So what's left is the goods they use and where the money to buy them comes from.

And we don't have any more details yet, but this description would mean those pet projects would need to have all sorts of requirements, the laborious ones following this logic, and the more administrative being abstracted by the bureaucracy spending, but the goods required would still be very important nonetheless.
Hopefully this system can feel more tangible than simply "spend points, get thing".

It says it costs nothing to government except for authority for the pops to follow orders. We'll likely still need pops and resources allocated though.
I hope so, confirmation would be nice though.
 

Theslain

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I expect the decrees to still require money pops resources etc... I think that when they only cost is autority they meant that it will only cost US autority. I wonder who is going to pay for the projects through.I expect the locals will work for free and maybe some local aristocrat / capitalist is going to be forced to provide the materials
 
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hjarg

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I see, I guess that takes care of wages and pops.
And I suppose even in a state without peasants to levy, one could abstract it away using the penal system or something, which could itself be abstracted by dependents.
So what's left is the goods they use and where the money to buy them comes from.
Corvee system actually covers this as well. Peasants do not come with empty hands. They have to bring a shovel. And a horse. And a wagon. And something in a wagon to fix roads with. And a manager, for that matter.

Basically, king says "fix this road, you bloody peasants" and it is up to peasants to organize the materials, supplies, workforce and everything else.
 
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ikki

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I see, I guess that takes care of wages and pops.
And I suppose even in a state without peasants to levy, one could abstract it away using the penal system or something, which could itself be abstracted by dependents.
So what's left is the goods they use and where the money to buy them comes from.

And we don't have any more details yet, but this description would mean those pet projects would need to have all sorts of requirements, the laborious ones following this logic, and the more administrative being abstracted by the bureaucracy spending, but the goods required would still be very important nonetheless.
Hopefully this system can feel more tangible than simply "spend points, get thing".


I hope so, confirmation would be nice though.

Why would factories be free of corvee? They too along with mines get to provide the stuff needed for free.
A good example being Peter the greats southern wars, all done on corvee labor.. ships etc confiscated from merchants. And told to make more for free in addition to taxes. And yes, the economy was quite drained afterwards. And no azov (the last time turks won something, and then by technicality)
 

kamata89

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for example i saw the video of an italian tourist who visited north korea in winter 2019 during a car trip the road was full of snow, on the road in the middle of nowhere were the inhabitants of the nearby villages shoveling the ice like a kind of corvee, they did it because they were obliged by the regime.
It's amazing that it still happens today.
 

hjarg

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for example i saw the video of an italian tourist who visited north korea in winter 2019 during a car trip the road was full of snow, on the road in the middle of nowhere were the inhabitants of the nearby villages shoveling the ice like a kind of corvee, they did it because they were obliged by the regime.
It's amazing that it still happens today.

Heh. I live in Europe. In Estonia. Here, the house-owners are obligated to keep the pedestrian part of the roads clear of snow and ice during the winter. The road is owned by the state/city.

This system also explains the questions raised by @Vohen
We are required to bring our own shovels and get our own supply of sand-salt-gravel for de-icing. The only government cost was making the law. And well, the salaries of the government officials who show up at your doorstep at 7 am during heavy snowstorm and fine you for not keeping the roads clear.

And it's a bloody 21st century...
 
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Vohen

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Why would factories be free of corvee? They too along with mines get to provide the stuff needed for free.
You all raise some good points, but this specifically seems like it would create some unrest.
Peasants may be fair game, since it's already been stated how they are politically inactive, but I don't feel anyone else would respond that well to the arbitrariness of a king.
You know, "let them eat cake".

And even so, it should be made explicitly clear that these decrees are covered by corvee in the game, and there should be consequences to it, like say, needs not being met and starvation for pops that aren't able to do their subsistence farming or normally earn their wages because of this forced labor.
Or if someone is being forced to provide their tools and basic needs, they should instead be losing money and buying these goods from somewhere.
If these things aren't taken into account, decrees will just be consequence free and completely decoupled from the lives of your pops, a currency that does stuff completely independent of the game world.
Normally I wouldn't ask about stuff that hasn't been delved into in DDs already like decrees, but this is quite central to the authority mechanic, which was explained last week, so it'd be great to get some further clarification there.
 
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Meanmanturbo

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It IS really exensive in terms of Authority from what we see from the screenshot though. So it is not reallt long term viable, especialy for a large country with many states.
 
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ikki

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And even so, it should be made explicitly clear that these decrees are covered by corvee in the game, and there should be consequences to it, like say, needs not being met and starvation for pops that aren't able to do their subsistence farming or normally earn their wages because of this forced labor.
Its not like road maintenance is fulltime work with a while state involved. More like a few unpaid overtime hours. Especially outside harvest times when farmers just drink kvass/kalja anyhow. Similarily factories providing tools, unpaid extra time.

Or how in grandpas village. If the kid was born before 9mo after marriage back in the later stages of the era (no doubt earlier too, lol) new and young daddy worked weekends and evenings on the church roof for a number days equal to the number of days the kid was born early. Gotta pay for the sins to god.
With church and state married to one another im sure such labor can be employed aswell. From swearing to whathot sins. Sinful thoughts and confession? Ow dear.. forget about those 20 ave marias, nope, its road duty 2 days over the next year. And the sins they just keep accumulating dont they?

But hey look at the bright side, that much labor for god, surely a place in heaven is guaranteed?
Roads, raise chuches, build ships, sew uniforms for crusaders...
Why was such a convenient thing ended? Well it provides goods and services, but no profits or goods demands to industrialists!! And no jobs or factories either with paychecks. And taken to its extremes... ahem.. russia.. ahem.. could leave the economy rather underdeveloped as this free labor and crafting is just so ever wonderfully useful.
 

Vohen

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The issue isn't really on the authority cost, it's how it interacts with the simulation.
I said it better here:
If these things aren't taken into account, decrees will just be consequence free and completely decoupled from the lives of your pops, a currency that does stuff completely independent of the game world.
And I'll reiterate what I've said in the OP as well, this seems exactly the sort of thing EU4 would do with monarch power, "spend points, get thing".
It may even be rationalizable as an abstraction if you stretch things here or there (much like in EU4), but the fact remains (at least until further clarification) that it's completely isolated from the simulation.

It could be a good mechanic, if only it had a tangible effect in the world, but as it seems to work right now, I don't think it is.
Which is particularly concerning, considering how this is supposed to be one of the four main currencies in the game.
 
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La_Moustache

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It could be a good mechanic, if only it had a tangible effect in the world, but as it seems to work right now, I don't think it is.
Which is particularly concerning, considering how this is supposed to be one of the four main currencies in the game.
Isn't the tangible effect that the various capacity systems exist on a scale as opposed to as spendable currency/mana? Meaning the player has the option to play at, over, or under capacity with resulting effects, as opposed to only being able to spend what they have accrued (like EU4 MP). In the example from the DD the Authority is operating under capacity, so the people view the authoritarian as benign and the government can enact laws with less resistance (+7.5 enactment rate). If the rate of gain was +0 there would be no effect in either direction as the ruler is seen to be using the power granted through tradition/law. Once the ruler goes over capacity negative effects come into play representing resistance to an overreach of power.

1623436354806.png


I also expect Road Maintenance will have an effect on pops in the applied province and that consumption taxes also probably have effects on specific pops across the state. This just doesn't seem like the UI screen to show that.
 
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Varren

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Its not like road maintenance is fulltime work with a while state involved. More like a few unpaid overtime hours. Especially outside harvest times when farmers just drink kvass/kalja anyhow. Similarily factories providing tools, unpaid extra time.

Then it should cost tools from the factories and harm the farmers' morale, at the very least
 
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Vohen

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Isn't the tangible effect that the various capacity systems exist on a scale as opposed to as spendable currency/mana? Meaning the player has the option to play at, over, or under capacity with resulting effects, as opposed to only being able to spend what they have accrued (like EU4 MP). In the example from the DD the Authority is operating under capacity, so the people view the authoritarian as benign and the government can enact laws with less resistance (+7.5 enactment rate). If the rate of gain was +0 there would be no effect in either direction as the ruler is seen to be using the power granted through tradition/law. Once the ruler goes over capacity negative effects come into play representing resistance to an overreach of power.

View attachment 730855

I also expect Road Maintenance will have an effect on pops in the applied province and that consumption taxes also probably have effects on specific pops across the state. This just doesn't seem like the UI screen to show that.
The overall effect of authority may be, I have no issue with that, but is is the effect of these decrees tangible as well?
We had to make all sorts of indirect conclusions and abstractions in our own heads to answer how the points spent translate into better roads, the game itself doesn't seem concerned with how the process is happening.
So it doesn't feel tangible to me at all, as far as the game is goes, it does seem to simply be "spend points, get better roads".
I'd love to hear from devs if I'm drawing the wrong conclusions here.
 

Spartakusbund

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Then it should cost tools from the factories and harm the farmers' morale, at the very least
The shovel doesn't break when the peasant uses it to fill a hole, though. I'm fine with abstracting away resource costs on this.

If you could use corvee to get away without having to produce trains/train equipment on your railroads it would be a different matter. But I don't think you can do that.
 
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Spartakusbund

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And even so, it should be made explicitly clear that these decrees are covered by corvee in the game, and there should be consequences to it, like say, needs not being met and starvation for pops that aren't able to do their subsistence farming or normally earn their wages because of this forced labor.
As I said in the other thread on this topic, corvee was usually something like 2 or 3 days out of the year for the individual peasant. I don't see why that needs to have an economic impact in the game.
 
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