Austrias Shadow Kingdom for Dummies

[K@meradenschwein]

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Hello fine people of this Forum

Today i would like to start my second try in uniting the HRE as Austria in Ironman mode. My last try was somewhat sabotaged by myself and by unfortunate coincidences. To mention is that I was so involved in keeping all my little princes alive that i was constantly involved in wars in the HRE that the Ottomans just blobed into Lithuania and Russia, turning them into such a hazard that they threated my empire with unholy alliances with the most sturdy and annoying princes of the game. Unfortunate was the fact that all but one center of reformation spawned in Germany…. By 1700 I had only 4 reforms passed and I calculated that i will not pass the last reforms till 1821 so I stopped this run.

Anyway – this will be my second try and I have a question regarding the Shadow Kingdom Event.

The EU IV wiki (http://www.eu4wiki.com/Austria#Rein_in_Northern_Italy) tels me how this event works, but even thou i think in my first attempt i did all that was needed, the event fired. But what I did, and that is maybe the wrongdoing, was to get all these provinces, add them to the HRE but i did not control all of them personally. A lot of them where controlled by Princes of the HRE.

So my question in short is. Do I as Austria need to add these provinces to the HRE and control them directly by myself or can I just add them and let them be controlled by princes of the HRE?

Thanks for every answer

 

[fyfaendeluxe]

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Holy_Roman_Empire#Rein_in_Northern_Italy

you enact a decision when you fulfill the criteria. Vassals count, but NOT regular HRE princes

 

[K@meradenschwein]

So to make it clear - the green and red provinces in the nice map of the wiki need to be HRE provinces, under my direct control or control of one of my vassals. Otherwise the event fires? Regardless if they are controlled by hre princes? Weeeeee, this is a harder nut than i thought.

 

[CplKatie]

Personally, when I got the cheevos for completing reforms, I let it fire so I could recapture them more easily and get points for adding them all again to the empire. BUT, its very important for you to understand that there is a decision you can fire for having all of the provinces either directly controlled(not cored at all) or controlled by vassals(real vassals not just a prince). So you can take all of the provinces minus Rome, then take rome, and as you peace out and before the Rome Penalty Event fires, you can fire the decision that becomes available and all of the provinces will join the HRE regardless of whether they are yours, your vassals, cored, or not cored. Then when the event for Rome fires, let it go. Shadow kingdom is averted and things are fine.

Now as for managing your princes. Focus on gobbling their non capital provinces and keeping them as OPM's. So work on Bavaria, Switzerland, Bohemia, Brandenburg, Saxony, and pray you get Burgundy Inheritance. Keep a large alliance power so that France and Otto fear you, and make sure Hungary is part of it since they can be attacked by Otto. Once the Princes are all OPM's and relatively seperated, the realm will start to get the peacetime modifier to imperial authority which is how I gained the most for reforms. I tried expanding and adding provinces but you end up at war so much and eventually either France, Denmark, Russia, or Otto picks you off at a weak point. Theres a minimum prince count so make sure you keep atleast 25 princes up at all times, I carved out around the HRE to protect them from outside wars. I feel that the neighboring nations don't calculate Austria's Alliance strength when declaring on the princes. Burgundy usually suicides into your alliance over liege which has the potential to leave you open to others on the east and southern fronts.

EDIT: I push north first along Polands border so as to prevent prussia/turn into prussia letting the southern italy provinces fall out through shadowkingdom, then after SK fires, I recapture them and add them, and then turn north along french boarder/Burgundy Inheritance to complete my buffer for the princes.

EDIT2: Before you get too far into reforms, when you become able to form Germany, quit and reload as your ironman back up save, this will create a new ironman line of backup of a backup and leave your original ironman game unplayed and safe from progress. Then create germany for that achievement, then quit and reload your original ironman and resume playing for the reform cheevo.

 

[YellowGelni]

No not realy. You have 2 options to prevent Italy from leaving:

1. Prevent the shadow empire event. To do this all the coloured provinces have to be part of the HRE and be controlled by a HRE member. Since the AI won´t add provinces to the HRE unless it is the emperor you have two options to get the red provinces in to the HRE:

1.1 Simply conquer, core and add them to the HRE. The only tricky part here is the pope. Since he´s a king he can´t be a normal prince of the HRE and controlling Rome and not beeing either the pope or Italy gives you a rather painfull debuff as a catholic ruler. And the AI usually hands Rome back to him. So you either live with the penality form about 1487 to 1550, pray the pope doesn´t need to be part of the HRE as long as his provinces are or you go by the easyier option 1.2.

1.2 If all the coloured provinces are either owend by a HRE member, you or one of your subjects and you are the emperor you have the desicion "Rein in northern Italy" available. Click it before 1490. Now the "Shadow Kingdom" event can´t trigger and Italy will remain part of the empire. This is the easy way since the only condition aditionally to 1.1 you have to check is you beeing the emperor (and technically beeing a palyer but ... yeah ...) but you don´t need to conquer all the land your self and you don´t have to eat the rome penality for as long as in 1.1 since you can just release the pope once you clicked the desicion.

2. Prevent the "Shadow Kingdom" event from having any effect. It can only remove nations with an italian primary culture which are either independent or have their overlord not beeing a HRE member from the empire. If no such nation exists form 1490 to 1550 nothing will happen. Be carefull tho since if their overlord is a HRE member with italian primary culture he will leave the empire making his subjects able to do the same. (well technically it´s also fine if the overlord just has a germaic primary culture but the only ones available unless you create one willingly are the baltic holy orders and Flanders? .... and if you want to shift vassals later the Netherlands, but this criteria is rather inpractical espicaly for your goals)

 

[CplKatie]

No not realy. You have 2 options to prevent Italy from leaving:

1. Prevent the shadow empire event. To do this all the coloured provinces have to be part of the HRE and be controlled by a HRE member. Since the AI won´t add provinces to the HRE unless it is the emperor you have two options to get the red provinces in to the HRE:

1.1 Simply conquer, core and add them to the HRE. The only tricky part here is the pope. Since he´s a king he can´t be a normal prince of the HRE and controlling Rome and not beeing either the pope or Italy gives you a rather painfull debuff as a catholic ruler. And the AI usually hands Rome back to him. So you either live with the penality form about 1487 to 1550, pray the pope doesn´t need to be part of the HRE as long as his provinces are or you go by the easyier option 1.2.

1.2 If all the coloured provinces are either owend by a HRE member, you or one of your subjects and you are the emperor you have the desicion "Rein in northern Italy" available. Click it before 1490. Now the "Shadow Kingdom" event can´t trigger and Italy will remain part of the empire. This is the easy way since the only condition aditionally to 1.1 you have to check is you beeing the emperor (and technically beeing a palyer but ... yeah ...) but you don´t need to conquer all the land your self and you don´t have to eat the rome penality for as long as in 1.1 since you can just release the pope once you clicked the desicion.

2. Prevent the "Shadow Kingdom" event from having any effect. It can only remove nations with an italian primary culture which are either independent or have their overlord not beeing a HRE member from the empire. If no such nation exists form 1490 to 1550 nothing will happen. Be carefull tho since if their overlord is a HRE member with italian primary culture he will leave the empire making his subjects able to do the same. (well technically it´s also fine if the overlord just has a germaic primary culture but the only ones available unless you create one willingly are the baltic holy orders and Flanders? .... and if you want to shift vassals later the Netherlands, but this criteria is rather inpractical espicaly for your goals)

Read my post above yours. The key to preventing shadowkingdom is to realize the decision that you can fire for it. It helps you prevent the Rome issue by simply having to control the provinces or have your vassals control them. So you can Vassallize them all to reduce AE, and then give Papal States land to Urbino and as your final attack to get it done, just take Rome, and before you unpause the game after peacing out, before its cored, fire the decision and all your vassals and uncored land in Northern Italy becomes part of the HRE and the event flag for Shadow Kingdom goes away. The next time event pulses fire, accept giving back Rome to the Papal States and then improve relations on them so you don't get excommed. With one of the latest patches you can work relations with everyone but the papal states and Urbino and they have a small chance of adding themselves to the HRE, the problem with that is that it doesn't count towards the decision so if you go that route, you will have to take the Rome Penalty atleast for a while cause you then have to core Rome to prevent HRE.

Also the provinces needed to capture for shadowkingdom do not show on the HRE mapmode. They are Ferrera/modena/Tuscany/Urbino/Papal States from day one and then the three Italian mainland Venice provinces that aren't Brescia or Istria.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

AE is not an issue, you should always be running +20% improve relations advisor and get the -AE from the age bonus asap
I was able to finish the Shadow Kingdom some time around 1475. Just have your diplomats always improve relations with all italians/southern germans because positive relations = no coalition

In general, the only reason not to prevent the Shadow Kingdom event is if you want to form Italy (Austria->Italy->HRE) to get the reduced core creation cost fromm italian ideas. IA wise the italians not leaving is better. Get Diplo ideas (reduces AE further by making it decay faster) then Religious to kill Reformation asap (as soon as a center pops up declare war, you should have a border with the most notorious converters)

I went for Bohemia PU asap, then Venice with Hungary's help, finish the war before 1450, then break alliance so you can declare in 1455 if they don't become PU peacefully. Then the Pope. If you make them release Avignon, in the second war you fully annex them, which removes all the maluses from you attacking them and so on. If they keep Avignon and not get fully annexed and then you give back Rome they'll hate you.
Go for Burgundy around 1460, with Bohemia and Hungary you'll easily beat them and the Burgundy war is 0 AE and you are probably really close to a coalition right now
Also if France is weak release a few french minors as long as they border with the HRE they have a high chance of joining due to feeling threatened from France

Also regulary abdicating (at a time when you get reelected obviously) to get 10 IA for free. And don't improve relations with all electors, only 3. The rest should have low relations so you get missions to improve relations with them for extra IA

That way you should be able to revoke pretty fast, if you do everything right it should take less than 100 years

Also always ally Poland (if they don't get the union restart) and Castile. Poland is good for farming monarch points, just keep a diplomat there supporting your heir (once you have diplo and influence ideas you should always win). After 1600 you can PU them. Castile gets a Habsburg heir if they have no heir, you have a royal marriage and France rivals both Castile and you, so the first time you attack france make them break every rivalry that's not Castile or you so they rival both of you.

Your allies are not here to protect or help you, you help and protect them. Poland from Muscovy and the Ottomans, Castile from France. Castile will handle the new world for you, Poland has a quite good military and both are essentially free dev

From that point on just Deus Vult everybody until you got Imperialism

 

[ponasozis]

AI will add provinces to HRE nowadays if you have good relations and they feel threatened by nearby force
a good example is when you release french cores they are threatened by france and being near hre border they usually enter hre


preventing shadow kingdom is pretty simple just get the AE reduction bonuses take out venice first then take out pope remember you can add rome to hre via desicion and then return rome to pope via the event which will add pope to hre because he always gets rome as capital

the event won t fire if all the territories required are held by hre princes and part of hre but you can prevent it from ever firing by using shadow kingdom decision

 

[K@meradenschwein]

I thank you all for your answers. Now I got a lot of Ideas how to pull of my second austria try.

What I did in my first run was to force burgundy into the hre by stealing all their non hre provinces. This helpled later to keep france small

 

[CplKatie]

I thank you all for your answers. Now I got a lot of Ideas how to pull of my second austria try.

What I did in my first run was to force burgundy into the hre by stealing all their non hre provinces. This helpled later to keep france small

I suggest ignoring them completely. France usually does it for you because when their capital is taken, which is a primary target of france, it moves to a HRE province every time. Besides if the old man dies you get all of the lands anyway defeating the purpose of the war to begin with. I can't stress enough how important it is to block Prussia from forming and weaking Brandenburg before the reformation cause that army is a pain to fight against if they get going.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

I suggest ignoring them completely. France usually does it for you because when their capital is taken, which is a primary target of france, it moves to a HRE province every time. Besides if the old man dies you get all of the lands anyway defeating the purpose of the war to begin with. I can't stress enough how important it is to block Prussia from forming and weaking Brandenburg before the reformation cause that army is a pain to fight against if they get going.

They start with a force limit of 10k, you have 50k, with Hungary and Bohemia you field >80k troops. Even if they get going, what do they have? 20k troops? And they'll be dirt poor, cause in North Germany to make money you need the Lübeck trade but every rich city is in the Lübeck trade league. Brandenburg can't beat the 35-40k troops that trade league fields

Yeah they'll blob into Saxony or Pommerania, and take like 5-6 extra Provinces. Then you beat them up like every other prince and force them to return all cores, no big deal.

 

[CplKatie]

Yeah I dunno, I've seen Brandenburg/Prussian space marines do some ridiculous things.

 

[makaramus]

as I know if you keep relations with country like ferrara or someting and feed half of target provinces to him you can both avoid agresive expansion and in time he MAY (not %100) add them to hre. requires VERY HIGH relations with prince to make them add province to hre.

I ... kinda test it...
I didnt prevent shadow with that but I dowed papal states and gave some lands to ferrara. after a year those provinces in hre and I gained IA from it(At 200 relations)

althought becareful: You dont want a prince forming Italy unless you make them elector
so my advice conquer entire venice accept culture so they will never form it

 

[ChloePech]

If you eat rome, you can just take the decision to do the shadow kingdom and the immediately say yes to the event that makes it independent. Now, its forced into the HRE.

 

[K@meradenschwein]

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So today i screwed up my second try. I allied Spain, England and Poland and I got married with Bohemia and Hungary. I fabricate a claim and fight with the Papal state and took 3 Provinces of him, leaving him Rome, Avignon and the one next to Rom. After that I had a bloody fight with Hungary to get the PU. Thankfully Poland helped me. After that i had a very quick war with Bosnia and Albania, giving their Provinces witch boarder with the Ottomans to Hungary.

After that two unfortunate wars in which Poland and Spain called me. Both wars won, both wars got me lots of money but also a huge loss of Manpower. Second war with the Pope and it turns out i can only take one province, Rome and Avignon is to much to ask for even with 100% Warscore. Pope gets a super alliance with France, a Tradeleauge and Burgundy. I try figure out a way how to attack the Pope without dealing with France etc. At the End i decide to attack one of the Popes allies without a CB to get a small war with the Pope. Sieging Rome and Avignon takes to much time, we cross the year 1500 and no "Rein in Northern Italy" decision anymore. I quit with my 2nd try.



Next try, I will do exactly as written here

I went for Bohemia PU asap, then Venice with Hungary's help, finish the war before 1450, then break alliance so you can declare in 1455 if they don't become PU peacefully. Then the Pope. If you make them release Avignon, in the second war you fully annex them, which removes all the maluses from you attacking them and so on. If they keep Avignon and not get fully annexed and then you give back Rome they'll hate you.

I never got the CB for a Union with Bohemia so far. Is the marriage with Bohemia without an alliance wrong?

 

[superscunk]

This guide should be very helpful:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...de-to-an-overpowered-austria-in-1-21.1022687/

It covers all important events and PUs.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

You need to watch their ruler, they will get your dynasty after you marry them, claim their throne, then you get the claim the throne cb

 

[K@meradenschwein]

thank you all, in my 5th try i managed it all. PU with Hungary and Bohemia plus the Northern Italy event