Austrian and Hungarian restoration

[asdfsadf]

From the late middle ages until just 20 years before the game's time frame, the Austrian state was one of the most powerful in Europe. Similarily, the Hungarian nation had a widespread population and lost 2/3 of their territory and Hungarian-speaking population after the treaty of Trianon.

The loss of the empire was a major political factor within these countries in the game's time frame. Austria was left with (as one Austrian diplomat put it) a "hydrocephalic" state, with an oversized capital that was designed to administrate an empire that no longer existed, and was now economically reliant on its neighbors. This led the Austrians to join Germany.

Similarily, the Hungarian regime and much of their population desired to restore territory that was lost to it. This became the basis for Hungary's joining into the Axis.

I was very disappointed that in HOI3 these countries couldn't restore their original legal borders. I wanted to ask if HOI4 is going to fix this.

Edit: Or rather, that even if you could restore your borders in HOI3, you wouldn't have cores on them, and the country would be far weaker than others of the same size.

 

[LordOfWar16]

You cant generate cores, no. You either start with them or maybe get them via National Focuses (dont know if that is possible but dont know why not). Germany for example starts with claims on danzig and Poznaz in HoI IV, i think.

If you can add cores via National Focuses (i dont see why not, but again arent sure if you can) you could always mod that in quiet easiely if you wanted.

That said atleast for launch minor nations wont have fully fledged unique national focus trees and/or tech trees and will have generic ones. The 7 major countries in the game will have unique NF and Tech Trees are Germany, Italy, France, UK, USA, Japan and Soviet Union. Minor nations will recieve unique Tech- and National Focus trees with updates, similar to the ideas in EUIV.

 

[asdfsadf]

In Paradox games, cores are added and removed after 50 years. It only makes sense that both states in the topic would start with these cores as only 20 years had passed since they lost their empire.

 

[LordOfWar16]

In Paradox games, cores are added and removed after 50 years. It only makes sense that both states in the topic would start with these cores as only 20 years had passed since they lost their empire.

Core creation doesnt exist in Hearts of Iron. There is only your core-territory and your non-core-territory and no way to convert it.

In EUIV if those provinces have the same culture it is 150 years until the core expires btw, if i recall correctly.

As for now there arent formable nations in HoI IV, like there are in EUIV. We might probably see that in an later expansion tho.

 

[agentgb]

That is actually quite a good suggestion! you would think that if germany had revanchism, so would austria to reform austrian hungary, could be interesting in mp also, given that germany & austria could have conflicting inteterest due to NF, while also obvious mutal interest. Wouldn't mind seeing somthing like that, would also help settle arguments in mp games on whom gets to play german culture faction.

 

[LordOfWar16]

@agentgb you could always play one german nation together in co-op

 

[agentgb]

@LordOfWar16

one problem with us paradoxians, were all megalomaniac's!

 

[asdfsadf]

I do believe that HOI3 had cores, but the timer was set to be greater than the game's time frame. So it was pointless unless you modified the files.

But really, the reason I would like to have these cores is because of annoyances with HOI3 playthroughs. I played a very difficult game as Austria where I restored the empire.... but because none of the lands were cored, I was really no better of. Similarly with a Hungarian game. Despite conquering all of East Europe, I still had the leadership and manpower of a minor state. It was very immersion-breaking and didn't feel at all like I had reclaimed an empire.

The alliance system of HOI4 would lend perfectly to dynamic new empires arising or old empires reforming and establishing a new sphere of influence. But if they are doomed to have the manpower of a minor country, then this is not really practical.

 

[Augustus93]

From the late middle ages until just 20 years before the game's time frame, the Austrian state was one of the most powerful in Europe. Similarily, the Hungarian nation had a widespread population and lost 2/3 of their territory and Hungarian-speaking population after the treaty of Trianon.

The loss of the empire was a major political factor within these countries in the game's time frame. Austria was left with (as one Austrian diplomat put it) a "hydrocephalic" state, with an oversized capital that was designed to administrate an empire that no longer existed, and was now economically reliant on its neighbors. This led the Austrians to join Germany.

Similarily, the Hungarian regime and much of their population desired to restore territory that was lost to it. This became the basis for Hungary's joining into the Axis.

I was very disappointed that in HOI3 these countries couldn't restore their original legal borders. I wanted to ask if HOI4 is going to fix this.

Edit: Or rather, that even if you could restore your borders in HOI3, you wouldn't have cores on them, and the country would be far weaker than others of the same size.

Hungary was the lesser partner of that deal. There is no way that the Habsburg's would be able to take power in Hungary. Hungary desired an independent state with its historical border and was happy to not be basically under Austrian leadership. The Habsburg former king tried numerous times to get back on Hungarian throne and restore the monarchy but he failed every time and if I remember correctly he was finally also expelled from the country. So if Austria wanted to restore the empire, they would have to fight for it. The only problem with that was that Austria was much weaker than Hungary and it would not get support from any major country, in fact most majors would oppose it immediately, especially France, Germany and the Soviets.

 

[Boxrof]

Hungary was the lesser partner of that deal. There is no way that the Habsburg's would be able to take power in Hungary. Hungary desired an independent state with its historical border and was happy to not be basically under Austrian leadership. The Habsburg former king tried numerous times to get back on Hungarian throne and restore the monarchy but he failed every time and if I remember correctly he was finally also expelled from the country. So if Austria wanted to restore the empire, they would have to fight for it. The only problem with that was that Austria was much weaker than Hungary and it would not get support from any major country, in fact most majors would oppose it immediately, especially France, Germany and the Soviets.

But Hungary should still get cores via some national focus. One of the main rallying cries for Hungary was (I believe) reverse trianon(the treaty that gave up lots of Hungarian territory). People would've liked to see Hungary restored, even if not by a Hapsburg

 

[Augustus93]

But Hungary should still get cores via some national focus. One of the main rallying cries for Hungary was (I believe) reverse trianon(the treaty that gave up lots of Hungarian territory). People would've liked to see Hungary restored, even if not by a Hapsburg

The problem is that Hungary, like every other non-major country will get a generic national focus tree. I believe that the reason why Hungary did not have cores in HoI3 on all their pre-WW1 territory was because of gameplay reasons, the number of cores would have prevented Hungary from joining the Axis.

 

[asdfsadf]

In defense of a reunified Austria-Hungary, there were also many Austrian Germans spread throughout the old empire, particularly in Czechoslovakia, where they were around 25% of the total population(!).

In Hungary that number was smaller, but the Christian Union were a significant political party and they were pro-Habsburg. The Smallholders political party were pro-Monarchy as well.

The Christian Union and lords associated with it were the onea actively trying to coup the government.

 

[Zoe1444]

They mentioned that going fascist as Turkey "might be a surprise" when asked if you can reform the Ottoman Empire. So I assume there might be something similar to reclaim Austro-Hungary.

 

[Augustus93]

In defense of a reunified Austria-Hungary, there were also many Austrian Germans spread throughout the old empire, particularly in Czechoslovakia, where they were around 25% of the total population(!).

In Hungary that number was smaller, but the Christian Union were a significant political party and they were pro-Habsburg. The Smallholders political party were pro-Monarchy as well.

The Christian Union and lords associated with it were the onea actively trying to coup the government.

The Christian Union was dead in 1930s. It was dead in 1920s as well. And all of its descendants(the different spinoff parties and mergers) were also irrelevant by the start of the game. Pro-monarchy with a Hungarian king, in the form of elective monarchy. It however never came to be, but Austrian leadership was despised and the percentage of Austrians/Germans in the remaining part of Hungary was minimal.

 

[Augustus93]

They mentioned that going fascist as Turkey "might be a surprise" when asked if you can reform the Ottoman Empire. So I assume there might be something similar to reclaim Austro-Hungary.

Hungary starts as fascist already, Austria should probably also start as fascist or neutral ideology. You can't exactly have a Austria-Hungary without both of the countries merging in some way. (Would be quite weird to form Austria-Hungary as Austria when Hungary is still present as an independent country...)

 

[Nuklearius]

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[asdfsadf]

I wouldn't mind something like a "fallen-empires"-DLC to create some fun for experienced players. It could include Poland (PLC), Turkey (Ottoman-Empire), and Austria (Austria-Hungary). If you are successful you should get atleast some more cores (or just increased resources from the provinces).

I'd really like to see something like that. Though rather than wait until the end of the game to reunite, I'd rather have it be something that you can achieve before WW2, that way your country is in a strong position to participate in the war, and the reunification serves as a strategic point of interest.

For instance, if I'm playing multiplayer as Germany, and I have an Austrian ally, rather than harass Czechoslovakia or Poland, my early-game goal might be instead to help reform the Austrian empire, in return for them joining the Axis. This way, in exchange for winning several wars and greatly lowering world neutrality, I have a powerful new ally.

It may not sound very likely, but this is alternate history after all, and I think it would be good to give players some creativity in their path.

 

[Kovax]

It's far worse than merely not wanting to be ruled by Austria. Hungary fought a major revolt against Austria in the 1850s while Austria was otherwise engaged in another war, and had driven the Austrians almost entirely out of the country. At that point, the Emperor called upon his cousin, the Czar of Russia, who then invaded Hungary from the other side. The rebellion faltered, and terms were arranged to restore Austria's rule over the country, in exchange for amnesty. Once the Hungarian troops were disbanded, the Austrians rounded up most of the leaders and hanged them, amnesty or not.

The stirrings of a second revolt led to negotiations, and Hungary was granted internal autonomy, while remaining subject to Austria in terms of foreign policy and military. That lasted until the end of WWI, at which point Hungary was given its full independence, but dismembered. Czechoslovakia got a large piece, Romania got a bigger one, and Yugoslavia was granted large swaths of land. The little wedges which appear as cores in HOI3 were merely the bits which were historically given back under pressure from Germany, the other 75% of the former Hungarian land was not marked as cores. In essence, if you follow the ring of the Carpathian mountain range, it forms a "brain" shape, and almost ALL of that was part of Hungary for most of the 19th and early 20th Centuries until WWI.

The lost land was considered to be "core" territory of those countries which got it, despite them not controlling it for more that 20 years.

 

[Nuklearius]

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[aruon]

...(Would be quite weird to form Austria-Hungary as Austria when Hungary is still present as an independent country...)

well that actually was the case historically with Austria-Hungary from 1867-1918. both the empire of austria and kingdom of hungary were extant and had their own parliaments. what was weird was that two countries consented to the notion of a unitary state under the same monarch.

Gernerally lots of cores are missing in the game. The messed up Hungarian Cores are what they claimed from Romania and their occupation-zone on Yugoslavia. I think the Devs have been very lazy on this part, most of the claims are just the same as in HOI3 which means we can't even release the Ukraine

this. so much this.