Australian Group Core Game

[mike8472]

It seems this sessions was one of naval warfare on most fronts.

In the atlantic a series of battles took place as the US sent fleets to assist Brazil after germany landed troops. Brazil had joined the allies at the insistance of the UK, Traitors.

There were a number of battles with Germany lossing some old BB, CA's one if its new Graf Zeplin class Carriers and a number of subs in a battle that i missed. Germany sunk numerous a US ships including at least 1 Carrier, 2 BB numerous CA and DD TPs were also intercepted a number of times both US and UK. Germany nearly secured enough VPs to annex but the US just managed to get troops to brazil wth one of it TP fleets retreating after nearly being destroyed, shame. Germany decided to with draw its forces from brazil while it still maintained control of the seas. Germany did lose 4 naval bombers to the retreat bug after 4 Strat bombers intercepted them over the atlantic (that was very annoying).

As reported the USSR has overun the ME Axis allies (syria). At present though the USSR cannot cross the suez as Italy has fleets blocking any advance and with the Axis in control of the Air it is unlikly they will be able to get across anytime soon. The SU then tried to cross the Bosphorus to gets its fleet out of the black sea to the suez. This attack was easily beaten back as it was poorly timed by the Soviet commander and armies all arrived at different intervals. I would advise the USSR to keeps its small fleet in the black sea with Italy and Germany dominating the med with naval power and airpower they will not last long.

With the demise of the US fleet at the hands of the Japs it is hard to imagine the US maintaining a strong presence in the atlantic or mounting any strong offensives for at least a year. One wonders what strategic oportunities will await the axis powers. The Uk navy remains strong but spread all over the world, and with Japan now free to exert more preasure on them, they will soon be cut down to size.

The US will need to go into a fortress strategy and build up massive forces befor trying to counter japan once again. Japans leaders report its land based airpower played the pivotal role, and lack of large numbers of US fighters was a significant factor. On to victory.

Next session 5pm Sunday.

 

[Majorball]

The only problem playing the Russians is you cant see any battle happening anywhere in the world. Decided to go and show the Italians some Russian armour and they didnt like what they saw. They retreated faster than any modern army before them. Russian soldiers without weapons picked up many Italian rifles in brand new condition and now have weapons to shoot with. The German airforce at nicosa was wipe out..I think 12 air divisions by the poor Turkish airforce who threw up a few WW1 vintage biplanes. May have to shift my attention back to the Polish front. Russian commanders called a halt to operations in sympathy for the fleeing Germans.

 

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In 1943 Lt Gen Morgan as was assigned the task of beginning prep planning fot the invasion of Normandy. His team was called COSSAC and reported directly to both Brook and Marshall.

his original concept - which assumed the mustering of all available landing craft was based upon landing 4 divisions and 1 para div inland.

in early 1944 Montgomery on return from Italy revised the COSSAC plan and called for the extension of the beach head to 6 div - 2 x us, 3 x uk and 1 x can, plus 3 x abn div - 2 x us and 1 x uk. At the time to facilitate this plan Moutbatten was denied all landing craft and the sea invasion of Bruma was postponed as was the invasion of South France.

In early 1942 the Japanses landed with 18 Div on Wake island.

eh em - Clearing throat.

This attack was due - and stated as such to be a reprisal - for the rearming the USN, as a result of the attack on Bermuda. The Japanese command thought the actions of the USA were - ' the most dissapointing ever - the crys of near cheating were loud and clear.

The USa asks. Given the clear German Navy domination of the Atlantic with fleets and island based acft - how could it ever have entered the european war without a major flight with the german fleet - thus the priority for the rebuild was naval and cags. The Japanese disbelieved this to to the lack of us vs germ naval activity in Jan - Mar. Agin accusations of using the Bermuda event to build a pacific navy were thown. meanwhile the USa and Germs were fighting incredibly expensive battles - bb, cv, cag, sub, tran, from sea and land based. To the Japanese though - the USA had still cheated and needed to be taught a lesson by new unconventional tactics of a landing force 6 times that of DDAy.

Its okay thgough cos Mike says we can fix it afterwards and its just a game. well its a game impossible for the USA to win - as it would need to garrison each island with about 6-8 div to just hold what it has. Thats about how many div it produced every 6 months. Also it cant crate arcft - thats need to fly out or be based off cv, which means bb fleets dont have cv for larger portion of time - so forget having axft on the islands.

Also forget taking the azores or bermuda as u cant provide figher cover for Germ land based acft x 8.

Game over - stale mate again.

 

[Majorball]

Jh
Have you had air tech minister from the start of the game? I played a game as USA recently and had no problems building up a force sufficent to hold of the Japs. I had improved tanks......cheap on manpower. You can build 2 tanks for each Marine artillery brigade you built(you build a dozen marine artillery) 24 basic tanks would be better. I find you selection on builds suspect. I cannot understand why you do not have improved fighters or even long range improved fighters. Cags are useless against improved fighters. JH you must understand when I started palying with you guys I was very inexperienced. I use to complain all the time but I learnt all the time. I learnt its no good to defend any USA island...maybe a miltia if you insist. Its just signign the death warrant for your troops. Now you lost 4 easy divisions on Wake. You ships you sent there were so far from their base they suffered a sever logistics penalty. Yo uare going to get massacred. Let the japs take what they want for the first year. There is nothing you can do. Build up a dozen improved tanks to defend home and Hawaii. Build up!! dont send in your forces peicemeal and get them wiped out. There is no plan no coorddination. This is 2 games in a row you have been complaining and this time the Japs havnt had Super long range fighters with drops tanks. Learn from you mistakes and improve upon them.
What I am trying to say is you cannot use your inexperience to nmake wholesale changes to the game. I can play USA next game I wont haver an issue and neither would the other guys.

 

[mike8472]

There is no need to garrision each island whith large forces. You guard your key islands with you main pacfic force for offensive operations later on. Base land based fighters and some naval air on your outer islands and this will make it very hard for any attack on them, even with a small garision there.

Me and major played the US vs Jap game and although it s hard to stop the Japs as it should be for the first year or so. Major used his forces in a more conentrated way. for the first year in the pacific you have to husband your forces like what the Uk has to do so they remain a force for latter in the game. Is it really worth it to lose all your fleet and ships trying to hold a few islands, isnt it more important to make sure yo have a fleet to protect the Western Coast of the USA.

If you mass your forces in Hawaii and then send out large forces to retake an island once the Japs have moved on or even later in the war, but hawii has to be held other wise the whole west coast is open. All the US has to do is preserve there forces and build up and by 1943 (which were still along way from) and you will have massive forces in which you counter on both fronts.

We have had good battles in the atlantic and you have committe large forces to the Atlantic theater from what i can see. Still you should have played more defensvily or with more co-ordination with the Uks huge fleet in the atlantic and you could have decimated me, why you didnt do this im not sure.

As for attacking the islands with 18 divs, well the US never had defences of 4 divisions on wake or midway so early. You should know from your military back ground that for any offensive to be sucessful you need attacking odds of 3-1 minimum so that would mean 12+ divs. If your proposing putting restrictions on attacking islands there there also needs to be restrictions on garrisioning islands, and how many divs can defend a beachead. It would simply be far to complicated and restrictive to implement when only the one player has this issue. You need to adapt to the game Jh like the rest of us do, not adapt the game to suite you. It is true the game is different from realistic warfare and dosnt represent realistic outcomes.

The difference is we all plan long before war hence we have 3-5 years more time to build TP (landing craft and invasion forces for these massive invasions). Im sure the US given 4-5 more years hindsight from 36-41 could have massed alot of invasion craft if they were sure they would need them.

From what i gather Jh, joel smashed your fleet in a series of rolling battles and you also did some good damage to him. But once your fleet is hammered or sunk the other party has the advantage for a long time. Your only option is to fall back and rebuild. Niether Japan nore Germany have the forces at present to invade the US sucesfully. Germany and the USSR continue to fight but only here and there we have been playing it cool for awhile to allow for a long game. This game has plenty of legs in it and im sure in the end the USSR will save the day for the Allies as they all-ways do. So gether your forces defend the mainland and rebuild. Your allie still has the largest navy by a long way, will you abandon him now.

 

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once again the brush off.

A few points -

I have had improved fighers for ages, all my fighters are new and improved, I bypassed basic of all types.

I have not gone on offensive - not once, I simply the defended islands I had.

I did not defend Guam.

Why would I build tanks in jungle islands?

Lastly My fleet - not a sausage has ever ventured west Wake. Simply on defence.

Lastly - I have never seen the Royal Navy, its in base.

Once again the key issue is missed in comments and secondary issues are preyed upon with . Joes accusation was the complete imbalance of the USN fleet, yet how is this reconciled with Mikes mention of battles. Either i did cheat or I didnt.

I am amazed at the ability of people to responde to the periphery and avoid the core of a discussion. Joels motivation was based upon SEVERE anger! Yet who is in those dead ships of Brazil?

I just wish Nolan would get out and fight?

 

[unmerged(34422)]

The Soviet Union has made a grave error in allowing Germany breathing space...

 

[unmerged(25040)]

oh yes - one more thing.

USAAF fighters cant fly to islands. They need cv to so so. And now we would agree we would always have cv defended wit some cag. So assume stack of 2 cv carrying 6 acft. So need min 4 cag to protect carrier group. So thats 2 acft ( the difference) flying on cv stack back and forth from usa mainland - that takes nearly 6 months to get about 6 acft on islands. Assuming you have other fleets actually patrolling the sea zone - with no cv of course.

People who talk about having acft on islands are either cheating and taking straight from production box or doing it some other way. Also as acft fly on and off they land with very low org.

Moreover as they engage acft over sea - the air retreat bug will destory them almost 40-50pc of the time. This is known my all who have expereiced it. This is especially the case with LR fighters.

Any body who can get 4 + fighers on the 4 key isalnds by Apr 42 has cheated. CAgs can be done as they protect the CV on the sea route, but lose against land based fighers every time.

Ist this same reason Bermuda and Azore are impregnable.

 

[Majorball]

We have a rule that aircraft do not need to fly to islands...I though aircraft can deploy anyway you control for conveinance. It only refers to land units that need transporting from home. This rule about putting them on carriers for transport is not required. Most aircraft could fly anywhere in transit cause they usually reduced loads by having no ammo etc..I have been deployign aircrat anywhere cause I asked last game and I assumed everyone was doing the same. Havnt had the problem in this game as I am russians but I cant see anyone having a problem of deploying aircraft direct to anywhere you control.
Has anyone else been ttransporting their aircraft by CV?.....If you havnt I vote that aircraft are expempt from deploying in homeland and can deploy to any area you control. Does not apply to ships or infantry of course. Anyone disagree?

 

[unmerged(25040)]

no major

wrong!

Otherwise why would we even need to discuss using cv to transport fighters...

if we could just deploy them - the need to use cv to transport them would be redundant and a waste of words.

LR fighers can make it from inner isalnds in one go from Hawaii, but not to Hawaii from USa - but joel can hop , hop , hop with more lethal shoter range fighers like AS, - game over in 4v4.

 

[mike8472]

Jh you are wrong on the issue of deploying aircraft and also ships. They can deployed to any region you need. The rule only applies to land units here is the exact rule from our rule page.

*New land units must be deployed in the players 'home' nation. This is any national province connected to the players capital by a direct land connection. Note: For UK, Units can also be deployed in the Indian subcontinent.

Here is the link http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167466

This is mainly an issue for UK/USA/Jap. There have only been a few times ive have needed CV's to transport aircraft. As Germany this game my fighters can fly to the azores and to bermuda no need for CV's so far.

This rule has been brought up a number of times mainly by major who did clarify this point in great detail last game. I dont know how you missed it Jh you must have been AFK or something, but that wasn ot the first time it was dicussed it has been brought up many times. I guess that is one of the bad points about being afk you miss things but we all have lives to live.

Anyway JH if you are unsure about any of the rules or deployment options then plz look at the rules thread. If you want adjustments or have ideas suggest them there. Munster is a big problem as well im always telling him about the rules has he never reads there forums hes to lazy hehehe.

Only suggestion i can think of to make invasions harder is to make it 4-1 for invasions. I think the PA play with that rule.

If we want to make it a rule for all units to be deployed to homeland (eg Air/Land/Sea) i dont have a problem with it. Except Uk they can deploy to india as well, as once the lose control of med the UK is isolated.

An option for US is to build cheap carriers that hold like 2 units each and use them as Escourt carriers to ferry forces back and forth from the Mainland to Hawii and so forth. If you build them from the begining of the game you should have them easily by war and low cost im MP.

On Joel saying you were cheating. Well i know joel got very heated, but to be honest i missed alot of the talking as i was concentrating on my many fronts. But i do remeber you saying Jh that when we made the bermuda Manpower for you, joel was worried about you directing it mostly against him. You said 'dont worry joel it will be used mainly aginst germany'. Now you have used a few fleets and sent a few divisions against me, and ive also seen those infantry up in st johns or they were there a few months ago, 9 i think so all up 250 manpower max i would think with a few fighters and subs as well.

Joels main point is that you were able to deploy alot against him in the islands. So because you deployed more to the islands he had to bring more forces in and launch bigger invasions and then you complained he was using 18 divs to invade. See the point here its a never ending argument of one up man ship. What ever issues you and joel have over this matter is up to you two to sort out im just trying to give a side from what i saw and since i did most of the fighting against US forces in the atlantic and saw what the US used.

Just so you know Jh me and major have been getting the core team to work on these issues. In core 0.9 which is out end of this month, US WE dose not reach 100 until early to mid 1942 which is histroical. So we should be able to allow US to join allies when at 100 WE or when one of 5-6 events fires to allow US to join the allies after certain things happen. There are events for any axis invasions of provinces in the western emishpere including bermuda, st johns and many otheres in and around the americas. There are now 3 levels of drop tanks basic, improved and advanced so that fixes our problem there with super fighters. There are good increases in US/Uk manpower by around 20% and more manpower events mainly for the US. there are hundreds more events for the US now for all sorts of things. Huge nuclear tech tree changes also large electronci and industrial changes. USSR tech costs 15% more and there is more dissent for them as well. So alot of changes all up.

 

[unmerged(25040)]

remarkable!

So why ever have had a discussion on CV and transporting acft!


And further?

How cans Joels furey be now reconciled with the game log?

ANd go back to the CORE point. Joel chose the tactic and said EXACTLY as such, because I was NOT deployed nor fighting the Germans!

Go figure!


I never complained - thats a whingers approach.

I ridiculed , mocked and played on - there is a difference.

Also note above - I never referred to a rule change or suggested a limit. If its gamey - its gamey - simple.

I can be gamey too - just watch, the boom is up! its a free for all, Both Mike and Joel have take the whatever it takes view. Ok fine.

I have heard enough times the quote - Ill do whatever I need to, DO you expect me to play to lose!"

Its is checkers isnt it. OK!


edited by gzav - Please read the Double posts sticky.

 

[mike8472]

I never complained - thats a whingers approach.

I ridiculed , mocked and played on - there is a difference.

Also note above - I never referred to a rule change or suggested a limit. If its gamey - its gamey - simple.

I can be gamey too - just watch, the boom is up! its a free for all, Both Mike and Joel have take the whatever it takes view. Ok fine.

I have heard enough times the quote - Ill do whatever I need to, DO you expect me to play to lose!"

Its is checkers isnt it. OK!

Theres nothing gamey about attacking with 18 divisions on an island. If he built the required forces to allow it then so be it he spent the IC. As for changes im just putting ideas up that may help improve the game from your point of view.

I remeber when major first started playing along time befor you came on the scene JH. Major was always saying how overpowered the Axis were and then he would play them and say how strong the Allies were and this went on for some time. Thats because he was learning, you have to let go of history or realism and just play the game. Major actually left a few of our games because he got well and truely flogged early. Major has now turned into a very good player i have been impressed with the way he has played his last few nations. You still fail to do this as you still call things "gamey" when they are not. Any strategy that does not meet your point of view how the game should be played is considered gamey, or at least that is how you come across anyway. Just play the game, with-in our rules, and in a spirit of friendship but aim to win.

I still learn new strategies and see what others do and then adapt them for my own current game. Try new things play differently, thats the greatness of this game endless different options.

 

[unmerged(34422)]

I'd love to know Joel's reaction at JH's ridicule and mocking.

Is it different from when he's losing? Just curious.

 

[unmerged(25040)]

perseverence

Once again we go back to the core point. Like a dog with a bone.

THE reason jeol acted is did _ WAS because of the USN production and lack of activity with Germany.

I hope to god he doesnt now deny this.

Read above emails blah blah on USN vs Germany activity.

Again If I cheated then why was their a series of battles - land - sea and air.

Stay on the argument - dont drift.

 

[mike8472]

Once again we go back to the core point. Like a dog with a bone.

THE reason jeol acted is did _ WAS because of the USN production and lack of activity with Germany.

I hope to god he doesnt now deny this.

Read above emails blah blah on USN vs Germany activity.

Again If I cheated then why was their a series of battles - land - sea and air.

Stay on the argument - dont drift.

Staying on the point.

So Joel knows what has going on here is what happened in the Atlantic.

Germany has Bermuda and the azores and was conducting blockade operations against the UK and also trying to stop and US forces reinforcing the UK or opening and secondary fronts in Europe.

Brazil joined the allies and Germany saw an opportunity to secure resources. 3-4 Provinces were secured when 2 US fleets were spotted and engaged in numerous battles. One Fleet i think contained mostly cruisers 9-12 the other was a 2 CV, 4 BB & CA fleet of 12 with cags on board 5 if i remeber correctly. In a series of battles most of these fleets were destroyed as well as roughly an equal number of german ships, and US cags were basicaly destroyed bar a few. There was also a German subs vs a US fleet which i lost to, unsure what type probably DD as i missed the battle.

The US landed 5 Divisions i think in Brazil after the TP Fleet i intercepted retreated to port, came very close to destroying it. The US sent in I.A.S Fighters 4 of them to brazil i think, to fight my cags and also my Improved air. There are also 9-10 divisons at St Johns mostly US, marines i think due to spy ship reports. As for other forces in theater i am unsure.

The US may be hesitant to send fleets to the UK as they will have to pass through alot of German fleets. Anyway i will leave it up to Joel now to repond now that he knows what was happening.

 

[unmerged(25040)]

Game

mike

thanks an accurate summary.

And I needed to produce those units to fight, thus the production was determined after the Bermuda event.

We are now on the core issue - thanks.

 

[unmerged(5892)]

Well, I feel a response is required.

Firstly though, some clarification of a few points that have caused some problems.

Following the German occupation of Bermuda, and JH being given 500 Manpower, I discussed my concerns with him about how this would be used. No limits were set, no percentages established.

JH and I also discussed limiting units involved in island invasions and defenses. We both agreed that we would keep it reasonable. No limits were set, and no specifics were mentioned.

Now that thats cleared up...

Following me getting upset that I felt based on Mikes comments of US inactivity in the Atlantic, and my own scouting of US defenses, I raised my concerns that JH had deployed the bulk of his forces to the Pacific, essentially playing within the rules, but against the spirit of our discussions about how he would use the Manpower gained by Germanys actions. Jh invited me to look at pre-war saves as he felt I was being unfair.

So I did. 2/3rds of the US navy, airforce and land units were deployed in the 'Pacific' theatre, and the rest in the 'Atlantic' theatre. 90% of the units in the USA build queue were naval, or naval air. At one stage following the Bermuda event, JH had 43 Cags in production. This, needless to say, did not satisfy me that JH had used his manpower in the spirit of which it was given. Had I seen armour, more inf, some tactical air, etc, I may have concluded that he possibly was actually building units to face Germany.

Clearly though, jh needed naval units to fight germany, seeing that the UK, with the worlds largest navy, has apparently chosen not to fight. But still, even with this, the forces deployed against Japan made up the bulk of the military.

Enter me grumbling and moaning about what I consider to be jh breaking a gentlemens agreement. This, combined with actions that he himself always notes as 'unhistorical' (eg, building of large naval forts, deployments of inf to all island bases, and removal of US fleet from Pearl Harbour) combined to deeply dissapoint me.

It was therefore with some satisfaction that against larger US forces I was able to inflict several defeats on the US last session. To defeat 4-5 entrenched inf behind large coastal forts, in bad terrain, with field marshalls, and with the crippling logistics penalty ensured that I could either a) accept that JH was defending islands with forces I could not defeat because of his large 'Japan first' committments, or I could attack with the forces required, and hope to win.

In light of the evidence of US builds and deployments that the saves back up, I chose to attempt to win, not to sit back and meekly await my fate from a US that by and large, had stopped me dead in my tracks within the first month of my original attack 'sans' pearl harbour.

Edit: It should be noted that I am now aware of the attacks JH finally launched in the Atlantic, and obviously these show a US commitment to Europe. Mind you, I'm still yet to hear any player confirm that any attacks of significance took place before I complained, not after...

 

[Majorball]

Nolan? Are you on mate..sent you an email? Send reply if you get it.....

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Sorry guys cant play till sunday night.


On amphibious invasions.

IMHO Amphib operations in HOI have always been way too easy.

How about if u want to make amphib attacks you have to do it with Marines or have Marines as 50% of the stack.
This may not apply to un-opposed landings.

The marine unit would represents the need for landing ships and landing craft.
Just using transports (even at 2 or 3 or 4 to 1) is way too simple.

Maybe try next game?

Also no amphib invasions North Atlantic start of November to the end of March


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