Australian Group Core Game

[mike8472]

I think you make a valid point Jh, we did have a rule a few games ago where once US reached 100 WE they could join. I just think it is hard to achieve game balance with 6 players, for if US joins when WE is 100 then Japan loses it advantage, but then that should be a consquence of increased german agression. It would make the game more challenging knowing that every move you make might bring the US into the war as it in fact it might have.

I think this need to be looked at, maybe the US dosnt join when it reaches 100 WE but maybe that allows the US to tech/share or send supplies or something. Maybe we make it if US is at 100 WE then they can join alliance anytime after 1941. I think this would mean Germany and Japan would have to work more closely with there plan so as to avoid the US joining the War early. Just some ideas.

In the current game i am in no danger of being defeated at the moment. But gibralter is starting to annoy me. Even if you have 24 divs there, they are attacked by 48 as in this current game and the last, and there is simply no way to hold, even in mountains, with forts, lots of AA, BBs of the coast, air support. Nothing can be done. Taking gibralter should be a legitate option but i think in the event that Germany DOW on spain then the UK should be able to control them to aleast allow a good defence condisdering the importance of gibralter. Or maybe by DOW on spain that brings the US alot closer to joining the war. Maybe some more thoughts form others here.

Also Joel can you plz explain to munster tonight about the deployment rules from mainlands. As he has not been following it, as he said he did not know about it. (which i believe as he dostn read the forums, italians are illiterate you know, and dosnt read the messages in the game an italian hermit). I have been deploying from UK the whole game, even moved my whole army back to the UK and then deployed from there back out to where i need them.

I must say i am enjoying all this airbattles with smaller groups. The Cags held up well around gibralter only lost 2 or 3 i think to repeated retreat bugs only 1 to actualy combat. I mainly used stacks of 6 there. In and around Egpyt and Greece im using stacks of 4 cags and there doing even better, holding of Italian Fighters, Naval bombers and dive bombers. Even normal air battles over land are alot better, if think this will also help with whole stacks not disapearing.

So to Jh and others, keep your carrier fleets to 4 cags, that way you can have alot more carriers fleets suporting all over the pacific with lots of battles. Cags are also more then a match for naval bombers, so naval bombers are less effective to carrier fleets. All in all good improvements, i really like it.

 

[unmerged(25040)]

USA We

Well I would stress that I am not seeking to enter the war, but believe the axis aggression would likely create increased USA diplomatic, technical and economic assistance to the allies.

I reckon germany would think twice about actions if they thought this was a consequence. they would probabky still act, but the balance sheet would be more realistic.

 

[Majorball]

I agree with JH on some issues as well. For this game things cannot chnage but even if the USA was to declare war(not be invited to join the UK alliance) thye could be hit with 80 percent dissent. I reckon you should at least give them the option. It would take a while before the USA was a force working off 80 dissent maybe for next game we can look at options.....

 

[unmerged(5892)]

Well I for one disagree fairly completely with jh.

All this talk of increased German 'aggression' in this current game is wide of the mark IMO. Last game, Germany invaded Nationalist Spain, which I can see people having at least some issue with. In our current game, I invaded Republican Spain, which no sane German player would leave as an easy Allied entry point into Europe, and which I think IRL would have been a target for fascist aggression. All my other attacks have been in line with standard game strategies. What I myself have not done, is attack Yugoslavia, Greece, or Norway.

My move onto Gibralter was guided largely by those issues. I accept the additional WE this gives the USA, but overwhelmingly US war entry has been accelerated by 2 main other issues. Firstly, Japanese annexation of China. This is realistic, and I have no problem with that. But for jh to point the finger at me for this is a little surreal. Secondly, in all my playing of CORE, I cannot honestly recall a single game where the USA has not achieved 100 WE around 1 year prior to when it historically joined. This is a fault with CORE, consistent across every last single MP game we have played.

Normally in CORE, some time in mid 1940, the US achieves 100 WE. If the consensus is to change how we respond to this, then whatever jh alleges about Mike and I forming some kind of decisive body, then we can. I will only add that I posted rules for the group, and if you don't like them, make suggestions of how to concretely change them. If you are happy at having the USA join the Allies as a matter of routine in early 1940, then by all means, suggest this. Likewise, if you think that the USA should be able to tech share with the UK then do so.

My big concern however, is that we are seeing regular knee-jerk suggestions after each game. The UK will survive without Gibralter - it's no big deal really. Last game, the talk was of the Soviet Union being too strong, and Germany being too weak. That no longer seems to be the same opinion from the same players.

I would also like to add a request on top of this for patience from everyone with the current game. I am probably being less understanding of some of these concerns than I normally would because of the frustrating attitude of 'hurry up' that we are seeing in our sessions.

In short NO, I will not speed up the game as host if it means that airbattles happen before anyone other than myself gets to act on them. I will likewise not speed up if someone has a legitimate request to keep speed reasonably slower paced where the action is coming fast and furious. We are all generally patient and understanding with that, and each other, and I would appreciate seeing this element come back to a more reasonable and fair-play orientated mood. We have all experienced annoyance when games end before the action heats up, a la myself as the SU last game, but we move on.

Looking forward to tonights session where we can play on, and possibly come to a consensus about any changes to the rules re US war entry.

 

[unmerged(25040)]

Usa We

Would people please READ what I write! I am NOT NOT NOT NOT requesting entry into the war????

I never never never did?

I am saying that in the event of German aggression - Which joel I agree, agree, agree is understandable and realistic - realistic - realistic!

THEN - in that case more economic, technical and resource aid would be forthcoming??

God knows hor reading my comments above it can be interpreted as requesting war entry or criticising German aggression! I reckon its fine! Im just seeking comment on the likely and realsitic USA response!!!

 

[unmerged(5892)]

Would people please READ what I write! I am NOT NOT NOT NOT requesting entry into the war????

I never never never did?

I am saying that in the event of German aggression - Which joel I agree, agree, agree is understandable and realistic - realistic - realistic!

THEN - in that case more economic, technical and resource aid would be forthcoming??

God knows hor reading my comments above it can be interpreted as requesting war entry or criticising German aggression! I reckon its fine! Im just seeking comment on the likely and realsitic USA response!!!

Jh, in game, you DID state you would DOW me if I attacked Gibralter, and only backed off when I mentioned the house rules re this. Those comments by you coloured my response in this thread.

 

[unmerged(25040)]

Usa We

Actually Joel I said that " I noted your aggression and that the USA would respond accordingly, I requested you back off Gib etc" I then said my WE was 100. I never said I would DOW you. But I was being threatening - with implied economic etc aid.

I would say in the circumstances thats the least we would expect from the USA. I am in no position to Dow anybody!

The point is this - what penalty should Germany pay for its aggression? - fair aggression yes yes - but what price? Nothing! The forum rules are silient on the issue, so its not about changing the rules on USa tech and econ sharing on 100WE or invasion of Spain! There isnt one!

 

[mike8472]

I think we are all making valid points from our perspective. I am happy with the game as it is at present. Although the vichy event not firing (crashing befor it fired completely is anoying) hence vichy didnt get there normal fleet, but that cant be helped.

I understand jh's point that there would be some sort of reaction from the US. Wether the game mechanics permit this is another story. As the Uk i dont think it would be fair for me to recieve tech from the US as that would unblance the game, and i want a good struggle against Germany, Italy and Japan when the time comes, i enjoy having my back to the wall, its fun. The only option i can see that would not unblance the game is that when US WE is 100 they can send supplies and resources to the UK or its allies. It think that might be the fairest result. Its a reaction but not an over rection, and i think the isolationist congress of that peroid would not approve more, unless the US is directly attacked (eg Pearl Harbour).

As for the speed of the game, well with air battles and sea battles happening every few seonds in the med from the italians and germans i cant see how i can play faster. If i lose my fleets and air planes there becuase im forced to play faster, then i simply will not play at all. Whats the point of fighting this war if i cannot fight it properly. Im sure when war comes to the pacific we will show the same respect, if i recal correctly i was a big supporter of continuing our past games so as the US and Japen could have a good long fight, but was out voted by others.

If you want to play the USA or Russia or Japan (although japs do get early wars) then you have to be patient. Nothing can be done if you want a good game, let us build it up properly so all players are strong and we can have a game reach 1943-1945. So lets all have patientence, joel has stated he is playing until annexed and if the USSR is defeated well Jh and I have a big job in front of us to defeat them. I for one wnat to continue this game until its conclusion, no finishing early, i promise if i am eliminated some how as the UK i will play a minor allied nation and continue.

I dont want to hear any of this i cant win now crap from anyone, if you lose 50 ships or planes you rebuild and keep playing, consider that your stalingrad or dunkirk or the USSR kiev pocket. This game does not finish until 1948 so lets play it out, thats 6 years of war for the US and Japan if we make it happen. Cya tonight 9pm.

 

[Steel]

Just to let you know that I'm following this discussion with interest as always. If the host could send a zip/rar-compressed copy of the save game (email to steel@melachea.demon.co.uk) so that I can take a look at what events have triggered for the US then that would be very helpful.

I'm also very keen to hear any further observations on CAGs, air battles in general and how Italy is performing.

 

[unmerged(5892)]

I'll send that save shortly Steel.

Well, tonight was a good session, getting us up to November 1940. After discussing the "USA reaction to aggression" issue with JH, we feel that we should vote on his proposals prior to starting next session tommorrow night. We can do it quickly in V-net if everyone has a think about it. I for one don't feel strongly either way about this issue, but will probably vote for it.

In games terms, we saw a busy period, with Italy extending its rule over Greece, so that with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Axis cause, the entire Balkans was occupied by Axis armies.

In North Africa, a series of clashes have taken place between the opposing forces. With no German force in Africa, bar 4 lone mid range fighters, the Italians have been unable to make any headway, but likewise have not been forced back.

With Norway joining the Axis, Hitler turned his gaze to Sweden, and in a campaign that suffered few delays, annexed that nation, securing the resource stockpiles that Germany's industry's craved.

As winter descends on Europe, No Allied nation remains on the continent, and whilst the UK rules the sea's, it has suffered some losses to German land based naval bombers. Overall though, the air battles that have been fought have been far more balanced, and intruiging than ever before.

The new year will bring the crucial question of what must happen in the east, and in the Pacific. Japan grows ever stronger, as does the USA, but the Russian bear lurks as a deadly peril and already it's technology in land is higher than any other nation. At air however, it lags behind noticably.

See everyone tommorrow 8pm for what should be a quiet-ish session over winter with no major campaigns (Turkey of course is inviolate) , til the spring/summer of 1941.

 

[mike8472]

Well Steel, since im the one using all the CAGs i guess ill give you a run down on my use.

I planned from the start of the game to use Carrier fleets to protect the UK and then Med and eventualy the Pacific. Each Fleet orginaly was going to have 6 Cags with either 2-3 carriers depending on size, backed up by BB, CA and DD. I knew that if i could maintain control of the skies over my fleets then the UK would be safe. So instead of using the normal strat of using fighters to cover my fleets ive gone for a good carrier fleet.

From the inital battles around Gibralter 6 proved slightly to many to get the best out of them so i restrucutred my fleets to 4 Cags and two Carriers per fleet, which has the added benifit of giving me even more Carrier fleets to use. 4 Cags has proved very effective at stopping Naval bombers, and also defending against fighters trying to clear the way for naval bombers. If it had not been for my Cags then i would have lost 21 Divisions at Gibralter, but the Cags were able to hold of the German bombers and fighters long enough for me to retreat once the battle was lost. That battle for Gibralter showed that my large investment was well worth it, and gives the royal navy great flexibility.

After restructuring the fleet for 4 Cags and two carriers, the WAR was joined by Italy. Italy went all out to hunt down my fleets and try and destroy them from the air with naval bombers and fighters. The one large Naval battle resulted in complete UK victory. It seems the side that does not have any carrier support will get thumped, as it should be.

I cant count the amount of times the cags have protected my fleets. Italy with some German air support has tried to continuely wear down my Cags and then bring in the naval bombers. This worked only a couple of times doing very limited damage. Two annoying points, one Cags sometimes get left behind by the carriers, so then the carriers have to go back to pick them up. Only way to fix this is to rebase to nearby land then back to the carriers. Second point, why can cags not be repaired on carriers as this happened all the time, Carrier based aircraft are repaired in there hangers and sent out on missions again in real life. I would like those issues addressed if possible.

So this game has had probably over 100 Land fighters/bombers to CAG engagments with Italy/Germany vs UK. And so far the Cags have been succesful in protecting the fleets. Once improved fighters come on line it will be harder, but my Cags will also have advanced to the next level soon, with continued improvements, so time will tell.

One potenial great use i can see, is later in the war the Cags will be able to do combine attacks from different sea zones on the one port, or tactical bombing of one province. So lets say 3 fleets around an island or off the coast, 4 cags each fleet so a combined attack of 12 cags from 3 directions to support invasions or tactical attacks on the enemy fleets. Very realistic and potenial pearl harbour attacks. Cags are great, still weaker then land based aircraft but i think the balance is just right.

Another bug, for some reason i couldnt invade Rhodes from the sea, even though i was in the right sea zone with the beach.

To our current game. Well Italy blundered once again, with its attack on yougoslavia stalling, delaying its entry into the main war with the Uk by months. There by missing its opportunity to strike a major blow early against the UK before sufficent forces could be dispatched from the UK to reinforce the forces in Egypt. Italy has now been forced to try and find away around the Uk defensives both on land/air and sea. So far they have been unsuccesful.

Once again Germanies lack of naval presence this game has given the UK a large advantage. By not putting any preasure on the Uk home defences Germany has allowed the UK to commit significant forces to the ME there by stalling the Italian/German offensive there. Although only 1/4 of the UK fleet is deployed to the ME it is more then a match for the italians. The remaining fleets are around the UK defending against any possible sneak attack by Germany.

One area where the Uk has the upperhand is in Naval air power, the enemies Naval bombers have proved basicaly useless with the Royal Air Force and Royal Naval Air protecting fleets and sending the bombers running. Such a large investment wasted due to superior UK strategic planning.

Like i pointed out last game the only way italy can be succesful, if for Germany to keep maxim preasure on the UK home islands. At least look and mass like your going to invade with your TP, naval forces and airforces and large gorund troops ready to cross the channel. This would force the UK to keep most of its forces at home, there by giving the italians a large advantage for a few months anyway. I am dumbfounded why the axis have not done this. So due to two large axis mistakes italy now blames the rules for constricting its power.

I think next game im going Italy and ill show you how to beat the UK. The last two games tow much effort has gone into spain and gibralter by the axis, when it should have been directed at the UK home islands. This game and the last when gibralter has fallen, it has not helped Italy control the Med. Instead italy fleets cower in port for fear of anhilation. The aixs need to revisit there stratgy for victory in the Middle east anyway which could prove there downfall in a longer game, a soft underbelly.

 

[unmerged(5892)]

I think next game im going Italy and ill show you how to beat the UK. The last two games tow much effort has gone into spain and gibralter by the axis, when it should have been directed at the UK home islands. This game and the last when gibralter has fallen, it has not helped Italy control the Med. Instead italy fleets cower in port for fear of anhilation. The aixs need to revisit there stratgy for victory in the Middle east anyway which could prove there downfall in a longer game, a soft underbelly.

Well, it's interesting you say this mike. Remember that in the games you've played as Germany, you generally haven't won, so lets just wait and see what happens before the UK claims victory yet

German naval air has done limited damage - that is true. What is also true is that whilst I only sunk 12 ships with my naval bombers last session, this is mainly because of the limited resources I have pushed into that area. What happens game after game, is that German players seem to fall into the trap of attempting to beat the UK and USSR. For me, I'd rather concentrate on one objective completely. I guess time will tell if my strategy works, or whether or not I end up puppeted and in someone elses alliance

In regards to Italy, you will find that slowly and surely they gain strength. Whilst our tech sharing rules forbid doctrinal and gold tech sharing to Italy, as time goes by they will grow stronger. For my 2 cents, I am curious as to what defenses are in the UK itself, and my paratroop corp grows increasingly bold...

 

[Majorball]

Mike
On the question of game speed it didnt seem an issue for anyone when a stack of 12 Italian planes dissappeared from my screen for a battle that happened hours before I didnt even see. I had to ask what happened to my planes and you said retreat bug from and island. Well thats great but I like to at least see what happen instead of asking.Now all of a sudden you guys are worried about the speed and wether you can manavouer your forces around. Once the russians in the war a lot will be happening and lag will be an issue so i vote we play slow then. Besides there are big areas to cover for some countries including the UK .And the countries complaining to much USA and the Russians will have more than enough on their hands.
And one other point Mike have you ever stopped to think that the reason an attempt on the UK was not made was that we want to see the game go its full course. So rather than get too cocky just let another year or 2 go by.

Yours Truly
Tojo

 

[mike8472]

Major you did not understand my post, plz read it carefully.

In regards to your issue with your planes. You did not have it set up right so that your recive promts when ever you have air battles, had this been the case you would have been notified when the battle started. This is not my problem but yours, which you fixed, and at the time the game was running slow as i was plotting lots of air attacks and so were you. So game speed was not an issue. I also have planes on islands this game but i made sure they have good range, that was also another of your mistakes. Which you have now learnt and hopefully wont do again, we all learn the hard way in this game.

In respect to Germany/Italain strategy, i said they SHOULD make it appear as there going to invade. Put lots of preasure on the UK to keep forces there, as actually what happened eg "Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic". This way the UK will have no choice but to put most of its forces in the Uk home islands. In this game i do have alot of forces in and around the UK, but had there been alot of preasure there i would have used more, giving the Italians the advantage in the MED for awhile at least. If i choose to which im tempted to do, i could send alot more Naval forces to the MED and forever finish italy as an offensive force, due to issues i had with munster last session. So far ive only deployed a fraction of my Naval power to the MED.

Im enjoying this game, and will be interesting to see how the War goes in Russia, hopefully a long one. As it would be great to see a full pacfic campaign for once. Italy could yet pose a great threat, but not at sea, it will be on land that they can hurt me.

 

[claudefrog]

Im not playing in this game BUT, if the US war entry was high enough it means that the Krauts or communists pissed them off enough and thus wanted WAR !!! Thus they should be allowed to join the war whereever they wish to be. This because it was the AXIS or Communtern fault to begin with. Dont want war with USA, don't attack other nations . Keep a nice peaceful world lol . '

 

[unmerged(5892)]

Germany will bring about peace throughout the world... On its terms...

Tonight got us through to early May, 1941.

In Europe, Italy was busy again with more assults in the desert, none of which met with success. The British in fact managed to counter-attack and push the Italian armies back from the border province Sidi Birani. In strategic terms however, the more important event was the Turk's joining the Axis under Italian pressure.

The British immediately intervened, and landed on the southern Turkish coast. A small Italian force pushed these forces back, and as larger forces marched across Turkey, the battlefield moved to northern Syria where the first Turko-Italian thrusts were contained. Large Soviet forces were noted to move into defensive forts in the Caucasus mountains at the same time.

In England, and the north sea, new german air models inflicted a series of defeats on the UK, sinking numerous subs, Battleships, Cruisers, and minor ships. British air was chased out of the skies over all of Southern England, which was then bombed and patrolled with impunity. But Germany knows that for all the damage done, the UK will probably develop new fighter models itself soon, and regain the balance.

Hitler did however, hold back the ambitious leaders of his armed forces who proposed an invasion of the UK, held by as few as 4 divisions at one stage. Whilst German naval bombers and fighters were keeping the channel and north sea clear of the royal navy, Hitler wanted to take on England on equal terms.

Next session 9pm tommorrow, which will see the lapsing of the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression pact. Whether this will bring about war is not clear, but it is whispered in Berlin that Hitler, having seen the weakness of the UK at home, has ordered the launching of Operation "Frankenfurter" in the summer of this year...

 

[Majorball]

Mike
You cannot really compare this game to last game especially in regards to the Italians. Rules have been changed mid game last time in regards to Tech sharing etc. This game Munster has been able to concentrate on Gold techs and docs knowing he will get others of Germany. Last game it wasnt till 1940 that I was able to get techs. Navy techs are a waste for the Italians because no matter what level they get to the UK will just be way too strong so its better not to wastr italian IC on ships. Germany is in a much stronger position this game than last. Its looking like it will be a good game and be interesting to see how things go when you are thinned out a bit defending your empire.

 

[mike8472]

This game is about to enter a new phase, with the Uk finaly gaining an allie in there war against the Axis. After battling for two years to resist the axis forces, the bulk of the UK militry forces are intact and strong. The British army is yet to be defeated in a major land engagement and knows only victories so far in this war, despite being outnumbered in nearly every battle. The Uk launched a counter attack in Libya, after landing a succesful diversionary invasion further down the coast. As predicted the Italians moved there armoured units to counter this, and in doing so opened up a window of opportunity to break there lines. In a tough battle the British army defeated the italians with large losses. In a series of battles in southern turkey and Northern Syria the combined Italian and Turkish offensives were halted easily with large losses. Another attack by Germans tanks loaned to Italy to go around the defences meet strong resistance from Uk tanks, with the Germans panzers reduced to less then half strength in seconds. So on land the Uk is holding its own. On a side note most of ethiopia has been Liberated by the allies.

On the oceans too, the royal navy still reins supreme. The Cags and Carrier fleets have proved decisive in holding and checking the Axis advance in africa and the ME. Although the Cags did suffer substantial losses this session, 12 cags due to retreat bugs, and another 4-6 due to game speed, not allowing me enough time to reinforce those units, and as a result they were destoryed. But Cags are cheap to build an only require time, with the next generation of Cags comming of the production lines the fleet defences will be stronger then ever. The Germans did gain air supremcy over the English channel in the last session, and proceded to bomb and sink a few old allied ships the UK had in herited from, the Netherlands, Beligum or Sweden. Losses to actual ships the Uk owned are limited to a number of destroyers, a few CA, 1 BB sunk in a large navy battle with the Italian navy which we won, no carriers sunk, and some TP.

In theRoyal Air there have been very few losess. 4 fighters were lost at crete, once again to game speed were unit strenght droped to quickly for me to repair, and the last attack on them wiped them out. Never mind, new imporved fighters will soon be online to once again rule the sky's and teach the axis a lesson.

This is shaping up to be an interesting game. With the focus now turning to where the war will be won or lost, in russia and in the pacific. The Uk having done its job and held in most areas will be greatful to the large allies it will soon gain. With the entry of Japan, the Uk will be stretched thin, but the defence of the asian lands as been planned for some time with troops ready to be deployed to india and eleswhere, which have been carefully hoarded for the defence of the UK or in an absolute emergency in the Africian/ME theater.

P.S now that russia and germany will be fighting i will be glad to see the game speed stay at slow. These losses i have tacken due to speed has been very annoying. Losing units to the retreat bug is fine, cant do anything about that. But losing units to game speed becuase players complain about the speed is totaly unfair. I would never request the speed be increased becuase im in patient. We've spent so much timeon this game alreay what would another hour have ment to run at a slower speed. I lost ships and had so many battle that where over before i could even click on the prompt to go to that battle, a number of them resulting in air losses and ship losses.

So in the future dont complain about the speed if it is slow. If your no prepared to wait your turn then dont play thoses countries, play the UK, Germany, Italy. A little bit of patience goes along way.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Hoo-bloody-ray

Hi Comrads

Good to see the games going well. Ive had all sorts of probs with my internet conection but seems fixed now. I,ll see u all on valnet soon and Ill be reporting for duty next game

 

[Majorball]

Well reading thru some of the comments when I woke up this morning and it was some duel between onmi and Joel.

I have a question regarding tactical pauses:

What the big deal on tactical pauses? I cant imagine when the USA and Japan are finally in the war with such a large area to cover not having regular pauses. Surely it can be a time for guys to tidy up other areas like production and Tech. I sympathise with Omni because there is nothing worse than having a bunch of planes dissappear or a battle over before you have seen it.
I can understand someone whose empire is relatively central to one area of the map ie germany but what about the UK,USA and Japan when they enter the war. I for one do not mind tactical pauses because I dont think beeing rushed or having lag issues should affect the enjoyment of the game. I can see with the japs I am going to have numerous ships moving, land battles invasions etc and there is no way I can watch all at once so I will be pausing thats for sure especially when i need to coordinate land, air and sea attacks to arrive at the same time. Why dont the guys who dont need the pauses sit back and tidy up things that need doing?

Any other oponions?