Australia tribe reforming

[Bellyfish]

Is there some sort of trick I'm missing to a quick reform here? Or is it literally speed 5 until a european shows up?

 

[grotaclas]

You can stay migratory, acquire a lot of tribal land, get mil tech 6 and become a horde with your tier 5 government reform.

 

[VenrisDorn]

At military tech 6, you can reform into a horde and dev push feudalism by yourself, without waiting for anyone to colonize near you.

 

[Panther8]

I got to a bad place in my Australia run for the above reason, causing a rage quit.

Yet another game change which made a huge negative effect on playing a bunch of nations. There are three choices:

1. Reform to Horde
2. Go back to a previous game version (may not work).
3. Wait for an Australia fix in a future patch.

 

[Panther8]

As for my item 3 choice above, it seems simple:
- Design three Australia-only government reforms at level 5. They could be based on the choice made at reform level 3.
- And MOST DEFINATELY - All three of them should have the ability to form Australia. It is only logical that Australian natives be the correct nations to form the country in which they start. Just like New Zealand!!!!!!

Why not have a special Australian government form? It could make that whole continent fun and unique to play. Right now, waiting to spawn Feudalism at Military level 6 is FAIL! It is totally against the current philosophy of institution spawn and research penalties across the world.

After all, the devs spent a LOT of effort making all those Australian nations, only to see it crash and burn because of a North American fix which fails on the opposite side of the world.

 

[Xamadu]

The nerf to NA Native really put a damper on both the Federation mechanic and reforming in general.

Of the 5 ways to reform, 4 of them are functionally worthless as they require you to be settled down and feudalism embraced or adjacent. Requiring feudalism slows down a player from reforming in the Americas to like the 1560's to 1600's depending on where you are. Australia is even worse, Europeans probably won't reach you until the 1630's or later. This change completely ruined settle down as a mechanic. Even trying to wage wars for more tribal land waiting for Europeans becomes a chore. The ai will continue to waste thousands of mana on techs so you will be behind other natives by around the 1520's unless you are willing to pay 1200+ to match their mil tech.

That leaves the tier 5 reform into a horde as the only viable option. The catch here is it requires both a tier 5 gov reform which is 700 reform progress to reach and level 6 mil. The reform progress is the real slow down. Even making your first 2 building the reform progress ones( Long house and fire pit)and taking the tier 2 gov reform you will be lucky to reform before 1520. Australian tribes have it even worse then NA tribes since NA tribes can at least get 50 reform progress from an early mission. Taking indigenous ideas can help a bit as it also speeds up gov reform progress but it is kind of lack lust otherwise.

Also, if you thought, hey I can at least finish the federation and get a bunch of tribal land before reforming to horde, think again. The final federation reform to integrate the federation requires you to be settled down. So for a migratory tribe after the 2nd or 3rd reform you are only using the federation to nab tribal land from other tribes without wasting too much mana migrating.

All of these nerfs were put in to neuter the ai tribes into taking the tier 5 reform which does basically nothing. Since the ai won't reselect a gov reform once they hit tier 5 they will forever remain primitive.

I wish settled down tribes had a tech requirement instead of feudalism. If it was admin 6 for Theocracy, Dip 6 for Republic and Mil 6 for Monarchy then they would at least have a viable path to reforming.

Also the Australian mission "Uniting the Tribes" needs to be fixed to give 50 gov reform progress instead of the current 75 dip mana. NA tribes have the reform prgress reward and it shaves 5 to 10 years off of reforming because it gets you to the pivotal tier 2 reform faster.

 

[Ekcrbe]

A couple things here. First, if you don't want to be a horde, you don't have to be. You can reform into a horde and then, since hordes also have only five tiers of government reforms and you don't lose any reform progress upon reforming, immediately click through to the horde tier 5 reforms and choose to become a monarchy, theocracy, or republic. Is that bad design? Yes. Does it have to stop you? No. And second, I would try as hard as you can to get knowledge sharing from someone to ease the pain of having to dev push likely three institutions. When you become a horde you gain knowledge of all the land the other hordes can see, so I would spy on someone in Asia and steal their maps of Indonesia to give you a way out of Australia. Expansion is a good first or second idea group and would allow you to plop down a colony in the area to reveal yourself (since no one can see Australia) and make some friends. That mostly hinges on the AI's willingness to ally you, since it will only knowledge share to its allies, but I think it's worth investigating. Even though you'll lose any land in Asia if you form Australia, getting that leg up on embracing the institutions should make it worthwhile.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That leaves the tier 5 reform into a horde as the only viable option.

This, the other options might as well have been patched out.

Even making your first 2 building the reform progress ones( Long house and fire pit)and taking the tier 2 gov reform you will be lucky to reform before 1520. Australian tribes have it even worse then NA tribes since NA tribes can at least get 50 reform progress from an early mission. Taking indigenous ideas can help a bit as it also speeds up gov reform progress but it is kind of lack lust otherwise.

I found the timing a bit faster than that:



That being said, developing for 4 institutions is still going to utterly kneecap your progress until late game. It's not easy to tech your way out of a 5000+ monarch point hole with a bad economy. Eventually, you get there (and razing helps a lot), but as usual the "design" of natives is to be slow rather than difficult.

 

[Panther8]

I just tested the other Oceania natives. They still have all government change options available for use.

I also just checked my save. I did make the Horde reform on August 3, 1502.

However, reforming to Horde is totally useless:
1. Cannot explore since the only ship available is cog.
2. Cannot develop institutions.
3. There is NO magic vision thing to see other hordes.
4. Cannot change into any other government form.

Maybe Migoratory Tribe reform works better, but I sincerely doubt it.

What a total mess-up on the part of the Devs...

 

[Ekcrbe]

However, reforming to Horde is totally useless:
1. Cannot explore.
2. Cannot develop institutions.
3. There is NO magic vision thing to see other hordes.
4. Cannot change into any other government form.

None of those should be true. It sounds like you just didn't wait for the next month tick for things to take effect.

 

[Panther8]

That is because it is not a real horde. My government type still says "Tribe".

And yes, I did let 2 months go by to see if it might change.

 

[Panther8]

Upon further reviewing my save, it does appear that the Steppe Nomad form could work. However, it requires you to:

1. Stay Migratory. Too late for my game, as those options are greyed out.
2. Reach military tech level 6 with all those penalties for no Feudalism and no Renaissance.

I don't know if I have the patience or desire to start over and try that option. It seems FAR better to go back to the previous game version.

Edit: I just checked the game and it says the government type will be Tribal if I go down the migratory path. Just might work, even though there is no entry for this on the Wiki.

Also interesting is that the other Oceania natives NOT in Australia do not have the mil level 6 requirement to change to Horde.

 

[Ekcrbe]

That is because it is not a real horde. My government type still says "Tribe".

And yes, I did let 2 months go by to see if it might change.

Well yeah, you didn't take the horde reform. The other option is meant for the AI to be able do something more realistic than becoming a Western-style settled society, not really for you to ever choose.

Upon further reviewing my save, it does appear that the Steppe Nomad form could work. However, it requires you to:

1. Stay Migratory. Too late for my game, as those options are greyed out.
2. Reach military tech level 6 with all those penalties for no Feudalism and no Renaissance.

I don't know if I have the patience or desire to start over and try that option. It seems FAR better to go back to the previous game version.

Edit: I just checked the game and it says the government type will be Tribal if I go down the migratory path. Just might work, even though there is no entry for this on the Wiki.

Also interesting is that the other Oceania natives NOT in Australia do not have the mil level 6 requirement to change to Horde.

I've reformed into a horde. I promise it does work as intended. You're definitely starting in a hole, but that's going to be true of any game that starts in Australia. You should be able to get to it around 1505-1510.

 

[Blindbohemian]

And MOST DEFINATELY - All three of them should have the ability to form Australia. It is only logical that Australian natives be the correct nations to form the country in which they start. Just like New Zealand!!!!!!

This is an absolutely terrible idea. Firstly, Māori are not able to form New Zealand. Secondly, Aztec are not able to form Mexico. Thirdly, Sioux are not able to form the United States. Why on earth would the natives of Australia form an artificial colonial state? We should be getting rid of nonsense fantasy formables (“Aotearoa”), not adding more.

 

[Ekcrbe]

This is an absolutely terrible idea. Firstly, Māori are not able to form New Zealand. Secondly, Aztec are not able to form Mexico. Thirdly, Sioux are not able to form the United States. Why on earth would the natives of Australia form an artificial colonial state? We should be getting rid of nonsense fantasy formables (“Aotearoa”), not adding more.

Also, they already are—as long as you reform into a horde, you will qualify to form Australia. You only need to have your capital in Australia and be in a non-native American tech group (for whatever reason Aboriginal counts as native American because they share mechanics). Since becoming a horde puts you in the Nomadic tech group, it counts.

 

[Blindbohemian]

Also, they already are—as long as you reform into a horde, you will qualify to form Australia. You only need to have your capital in Australia and be in a non-native American tech group (for whatever reason Aboriginal counts as native American because they share mechanics). Since becoming a horde puts you in the Nomadic tech group, it counts.

Ugh. EUIV, how far you have fallen.

 

[Panther8]

I guess the main issue with my run is that I settled. After all, this is how you can select the final Federation reform and annex a bunch of land. But I read somewhere that this causes the achievement to fail, so that path is out.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As pointed out, you can't settle if you want horde, which is the only option that isn't fake (for sure in Australia). Once you're a horde, you can get institutions and such normally, but it's true you pay dearly in game time lost.

The Oceanic tribes are not flagged as "primitive", so they can get institutions and use normal ships as long as they have the tech. Completely different from NA/SA/Australian starts, and more like Sub-Saharan Africans.

 

[JacobiteJames]

I got to a bad place in my Australia run for the above reason, causing a rage quit.

Yet another game change which made a huge negative effect on playing a bunch of nations. There are three choices:

1. Reform to Horde
2. Go back to a previous game version (may not work).
3. Wait for an Australia fix in a future patch.

'nations'