Aussie Monday game started 16th April 2007

[unmerged(63610)]

hey guys,

as fresh meat, reading thru this post, i would like to raise the matter of information, but as fresh meat, pls forgive me for anything that i overlook!

there is no way GER would get away with JAP or anyone building BBs or anything practically without the world knowing . You cant hide a BB, and although game doesnt seem to cater for it, perhaps we should consider this:

For any Building Trades, these two house rules may help:
1: minimum is full cost of the building nation, and
2: any Building Trades MUST BE DECLARED!!!!!

This does two things, ensures that the full cost is met by the receiving nation, and that the world knows about this. Afterall, if 6 BB arrived at Hamburg from Tokyo, the world would know about it, prewar or during war, spys or no spys, Womens Day, Wheels Magazine and House and Gardens would all have full page spreads on the deal!!!!

The questions of cost in terms of timing should be that the cost of any deal is transferred at time units are received at the very latest, but really from the time the deal is made.

Anyway, something to consider, nice post guys, a bit feisty for a forum myself but nonetheless entertaining :rofl:

 

[unmerged(59421)]

Bommel. Even though it is obvious that the BB's came from Japan, I don't think it should be neccessary to announce it to the public. That's what spies are for. Do you think that America announced to the Axis during the war. 'Guess what mates, we're building the fucking nueclear bomb. Japan going to be FUBAR!'. Not a chance. If Japan had of built 8 Bismark class BB's for Germany in real life back in the day, do you think they would have told the world if it was part of some long term war strategy. No, just like in this game the Royal Navy would have found out when they sailed out of port and left half the British BB fleet at the bottom of the English Channel. That's why we have a rule about trading and it didn't breach our rules in any way whatsoever. Personally as the country building the BB's, if I wanted to build them and then sell to to Germany for say 2k supps each then that should be my perogative. Naturally I would be insane to do so, but as we have previously discussed Germany payed my supply cost and gave lump sums as well as lump sums of raw resources to Japan as payment. As far as the heated discussions go. Well I think all members of the Aussie group will aggree with me here. Get used to it, you ain't in Kansas any more Toto. Welcome to the Aussie group. SE.

 

[mike8472]

Bommel. Even though it is obvious that the BB's came from Japan, I don't think it should be neccessary to announce it to the public. That's what spies are for. Do you think that America announced to the Axis during the war. 'Guess what mates, we're building the fucking nueclear bomb. Japan going to be FUBAR!'. Not a chance. If Japan had of built 8 Bismark class BB's for Germany in real life back in the day, do you think they would have told the world if it was part of some long term war strategy. No, just like in this game the Royal Navy would have found out when they sailed out of port and left half the British BB fleet at the bottom of the English Channel. That's why we have a rule about trading and it didn't breach our rules in any way whatsoever. Personally as the country building the BB's, if I wanted to build them and then sell to to Germany for say 2k supps each then that should be my perogative. Naturally I would be insane to do so, but as we have previously discussed Germany payed my supply cost and gave lump sums as well as lump sums of raw resources to Japan as payment. As far as the heated discussions go. Well I think all members of the Aussie group will aggree with me here. Get used to it, you ain't in Kansas any more Toto. Welcome to the Aussie group. SE.

Funny post stalin and acurate. I agree there is no need to announce anything publicly.

It is player choices what they do. Just becuase I build or buy battleships isnt the end of the world. A UK with a good CV fleet can handle that.

The main reason I did this strategy is because boof and G told me gunny likes to build marines and do invasions all over the place just to keep you off guard. So early on I decided to take advanatage of that by building a strong surface fleet.

I could then ambush any invasion fleets or go out and destroy alot of UK ships and make the UK think twice about comming any where near Germany. That was the main reason to exploit gunnies game plan from what I had been told by other players. I have been away for 6 months so didnt know how gunny was playing the game now.

The second bonus was forcing the UK to keep most of its fleet to protect its home Islands as an invasion is now a very real option for Germany. This helps Italy and later Japan having to face less ships and keeping the UK occupied.

There are also longer term plans that we have set in place from early on but which cannot be discussed at this point. They will become edivident as the game goes on into 41,42 & 43.

 

[unmerged(63610)]

Bommel. Even though it is obvious that the BB's came from Japan, I don't think it should be neccessary to announce it to the public. That's what spies are for. Do you think that America announced to the Axis during the war. 'Guess what mates, we're building the fucking nueclear bomb. Japan going to be FUBAR!'. Not a chance. If Japan had of built 8 Bismark class BB's for Germany in real life back in the day, do you think they would have told the world if it was part of some long term war strategy. No, just like in this game the Royal Navy would have found out when they sailed out of port and left half the British BB fleet at the bottom of the English Channel. That's why we have a rule about trading and it didn't breach our rules in any way whatsoever. Personally as the country building the BB's, if I wanted to build them and then sell to to Germany for say 2k supps each then that should be my perogative. Naturally I would be insane to do so, but as we have previously discussed Germany payed my supply cost and gave lump sums as well as lump sums of raw resources to Japan as payment. As far as the heated discussions go. Well I think all members of the Aussie group will aggree with me here. Get used to it, you ain't in Kansas any more Toto. Welcome to the Aussie group. SE.

From a realism perspective, which i understand is an underlying cornerstone of the group, however i perhaps maybe wrong, the game itself is limited to handle things such as trades, but they do and should occur. So in trying to keep with the spirit of realism , it would be public knowledge that Japan was building 8 BBs for GER, even if the JAP Govt were to try and hide it, i doubt they could!!!!!!

NEWS FLASH, AIR WARFARE DESTROYER CONTRACT TO BE SPLIT BETWEEN SOUTH AUSTRALIA, VICTORIA AND PERTH. SPANISH GOVT SOUGHT TO PROVIDE WARSHIPS........

NEWS FLASH, 100 S/H USA ABRAMS ARE ON THERE WAY TO OZ.........

Even if the govt wanted to keep this a secret, it just doesnt happen, you cant hide a BB!!!! o

Nukes are different, sure, most knew that USA, JAP, RUS & GER were working on some new cool stuff, but that was about it, so spies are essential for this, but for the build of a battleship, its hard to keep that baby under a a massive piece of canvass sown together by Happy Gilmores Grandmas Craft Class

Price, i agree, whatever, but the minimum price is at least the cost of build unless you are allies perhaps.

Anyway, where does is stop i guess, youd end up with a zillion house rules, whatever the housemates decide in the end i guess, but i believe the REALISM principle should be upheld as far as practical. For me, the strategy mike used was a great idea, i just reckon that in this case, the building of BBs should be declared.

The trade rule you mention, what is that rule? is that paying IC cost in supplies?

And in terms of the forum, well, each to there own, nothing flamin from me here, just objective stuff, specially when i dont know anyone! But thanks for the welcome to the Aussie Group SE

Theres no place like home, Theres no place like home...........​

​

 

[mike8472]

From a realism perspective, which i understand is an underlying cornerstone of the group, however i perhaps maybe wrong, the game itself is limited to handle things such as trades, but they do and should occur. So in trying to keep with the spirit of realism , it would be public knowledge that Japan was building 8 BBs for GER, even if the JAP Govt were to try and hide it, i doubt they could!!!!!!

NEWS FLASH, AIR WARFARE DESTROYER CONTRACT TO BE SPLIT BETWEEN SOUTH AUSTRALIA, VICTORIA AND PERTH. SPANISH GOVT SOUGHT TO PROVIDE WARSHIPS........

NEWS FLASH, 100 S/H USA ABRAMS ARE ON THERE WAY TO OZ.........

Even if the govt wanted to keep this a secret, it just doesnt happen, you cant hide a BB!!!! o

Nukes are different, sure, most knew that USA, JAP, RUS & GER were working on some new cool stuff, but that was about it, so spies are essential for this, but for the build of a battleship, its hard to keep that baby under a a massive piece of canvass sown together by Happy Gilmores Grandmas Craft Class

Price, i agree, whatever, but the minimum price is at least the cost of build unless you are allies perhaps.

Anyway, where does is stop i guess, youd end up with a zillion house rules, whatever the housemates decide in the end i guess, but i believe the REALISM principle should be upheld as far as practical. For me, the strategy mike used was a great idea, i just reckon that in this case, the building of BBs should be declared.

The trade rule you mention, what is that rule? is that paying IC cost in supplies?

And in terms of the forum, well, each to there own, nothing flamin from me here, just objective stuff, specially when i dont know anyone! But thanks for the welcome to the Aussie Group SE

Theres no place like home, Theres no place like home...........​

​

The main focus of our group is to try and keep games to historic dates and teams as much as possible. This however gets less and less historic as morep layers join in. IE Nationalist Spain, Canadian and Australian players. They all build up these minors to be powerful distorting the game, but there fun to play and thats the main point of the game.

We do not restrict units builds or buys as it is simly far to complicated to do so. Where would it stop, could germany only build say 15 panzer divisions or 30 fighters units and so on.

It is far better to leave it up to the player to use there own ideas and strategies with in our rules. This puts one persons strategy up against anothers and who ever plays better or plans best will normaly win for the moment until they other person can counter the threat.

The only reason my Battleships have caused a stir is becuase no one has done it before. Sure people have traded planes and some other units, but not battleships. Thats because most players regard battleships as useless or obsolet. So I took a gamble to try and bring a new stratgy into our games and force people to adapt to it. I thought I could catch the allies out by havin a powerful surface fleet, wether it stands up to a CV fleet is another question, I highly doubt it unless I get lucky or use the fleet carefully.

The only reason the UK has been hurt by it is they have no real effective counter for it. The only way they can stop it at present seems to mass there entire battleship fleet. This gives the other axis powers, Italy, Spain and later Japan a big advanatage as they will own the seas in there areas, also Japan will be 1 out against the USN. This means the UK will get hammered in most parts of the world as it canot protect its flanks from invasion. So if the UK navy comes out and fights me head on it will most likely lose or at least be reduced irelvance and if it dosnt it cannot leave it home islands undefended and use those significant forces to either hurt Italy, Japan or Spain.

So inconclusion by the UK not investing in Naval power as it should to gurantee command of the seas, espically in CV's it leaves the whole Commonwealth and allies very vulenrable. All it would take is 6 new CV's for the UK to build and it would nearly gurantee any ships Germany builds will never defeat the Royal navy to an extent to be any real danger. I have done this myself and seen it done by other players, not uncommon for the RN to have 12 fleet CV's unpon war to deal with any threats from Germany and the Italian navy and a good base to expand unpon for helping to deal with Japan.

These are just my points of view and thinking as an axis player and what ive seen so far.


With more Bismark class ships nearing completion Germany is not trying to control the seas but dominate it. A new age will arise with the domination of the Germany navy in the atlantic.

 

[unmerged(59421)]

Bommel the realism aspect 'TODAY' is correct. No you couldn't hide the fact that you are building a battleship or aircraft carrier or 10'000 SU 33 Russian interceptor class jet fighters. But back in the day there was no such thing as spy satelitte technology or even the sophisticated spy networks that are in place by the major powers today. If my history is correct the highly advanced spy networks today came into place and were established by the major powers during the cold war, some 20 to 30 years after the dates this game is played over. Bottom line, if the UK or USA wanted to know what Japan or Germany was building. They would have to send spies. One spy into Japan by any allied nation would have said that I was focusing production towards a powerful surface fleet to control the seas. Anyone who has played with me recently knows I don't start normally building up my navy and airforce until late 39, early 40. Why because I have the better techs and industrial techs for quicker naval and air building and more ic so I can put more serial runs of units into production. The basic result is that I produce almost as many and sometimes more units by the time I goto war in 41 then what I would if I started an early build up in early 38 when I started building the BB's. So one spy and you all would have known that I was building a large surface fleet which should have set off alarm bells for those that play with me regulary. Then a spy into Germany says he isn't building a surface fleet, put two and two together... SE.

 

[Majorball]

If you cant handle a good fight on the forums you shouldnt be playing

The idea of the forums is to discuss these issues outside the game so when we do play we dont have any problems. While I disagree with the Axis perpesctive on this issue it is my oponion only. I can see huge benefeits to the Allied side doing the same thing. The Axis could pay a discount rate for the entire Japanese navy pre war..now wouldnt that make sealion fun. In reverse the USA could make a generous donation the the Royal Navy with subsidised ships. Its only your word that you are paying the full cost so who would know if you didnt pay a cent.

I say free trade for all no matter what...then everyone knows and no questions asked. You dont have to worry about wether they were paid for or not etc etc..no grey areas like now.

In this example...Mike paid 200 supplies for a period of time..8 battleships at 33 supplies a peices is 8 X 33= 266 thats 66 supplies saving around 15 IC...for a period of time mike paid only 125 supples thats 141 supplies saving around 35 IC saving. So we have to take Mikes word for it that he made the difference up some how. If he didnt pass on lump sums to make up the cost this an average of around 30 IC saving so some of the BB were subsidised by the Japanese government.

So in actual effect the balance of the game has been altered by this subsidy with the German free to use that IC on other things. As the UK is restricted by gearing limits this saving is quite significant in the context of the game.

Now do we just take players word for it that they paid the actual costs or do we just leave it open slather. I prefer the open slather as that there is no grey areas. Anyone can say they passed on lump sums as payment. I think if this is done players should be forced to pay the exact supply costs for the duration of the transaction(They save on build times).

The questions I have concern over are the following:

Why wasnt the total cost of supplies paid for the BB as a daily trade agreement?

If German can afford to send lump sums why wasnt the IC used instead to pay for the actual costs in a daily transaction?

What was the total Subsidy provided by the Japanese government on total costs(IC subsidy) apart from the build times?

Is this any different to the USA providing UK or Russia with supplies pre war?

Lots of questions, lots of grey areas....make it free for all.

 

[mike8472]

In this example...Mike paid 200 supplies for a period of time..8 battleships at 33 supplies a peices is 8 X 33= 266 thats 66 supplies saving around 15 IC...for a period of time mike paid only 125 supples thats 141 supplies saving around 35 IC saving. So we have to take Mikes word for it that he made the difference up some how. If he didnt pass on lump sums to make up the cost this an average of around 30 IC saving so some of the BB were subsidised by the Japanese government.

If Major had looked at the save carefully he would see Germany in fact always had a trade deal for 200 supplies or more. What major dosnt know is that Japan did trade deals with me for other reasons that he isnt privy to. To tell him would reveal to many of our plans. So the only reason that trad drops down in supplies is becuase Japan is doing some trades back to germany. Germany at all times had a trade of 200 supplies. There were numerious other once trades done as well. So here once again major is trying to guess what we have do or doing. This is why he shouldnt look at saves hes trying to second guess what were doing without actualy knowing, which cuases alo of confusion in the that little mind of his.

So in actual effect the balance of the game has been altered by this subsidy with the German free to use that IC on other things. As the UK is restricted by gearing limits this saving is quite significant in the context of the game.

There was no subsidy provided. Major you just know all the facts and where not going to tell you. Like I said to do so would reveal to much of our strategy in this game.


Why wasnt the total cost of supplies paid for the BB as a daily trade agreement?It was.

If German can afford to send lump sums why wasnt the IC used instead to pay for the actual costs in a daily transaction? It was, if you havnt learnt by now any trades Japan does back to germany come off that trade the game combines all trades into one deal. So you may see itis only 141 or so, but it its really 200 it just means japan has other trades going back to germany.

What was the total Subsidy provided by the Japanese government on total costs(IC subsidy) apart from the build times?None.

Is this any different to the USA providing UK or Russia with supplies pre war?Ofcourse not. USA or USSR have supplies UK players with huge amounts of supplies pre war for many of our games going back a few years now. Now its the Axis turn to use that same strategy against the allies. Whats good for the allies is good for the axis.

Lots of questions, lots of grey areas....make it free for all.[/QUOTE]It is.

 

[Majorball]

If Major had looked at the save carefully he would see Germany in fact always had a trade deal for 200 supplies or more. What major dosnt know is that Japan did trade deals with me for other reasons that he isnt privy to. To tell him would reveal to many of our plans. So the only reason that trad drops down in supplies is becuase Japan is doing some trades back to germany. Germany at all times had a trade of 200 supplies. There were numerious other once trades done as well. So here once again major is trying to guess what we have do or doing. This is why he shouldnt look at saves hes trying to second guess what were doing without actualy knowing, which cuases alo of confusion in the that little mind of his.

There was no subsidy provided. Major you just know all the facts and where not going to tell you. Like I said to do so would reveal to much of our strategy in this game.


Why wasnt the total cost of supplies paid for the BB as a daily trade agreement?It was.

If German can afford to send lump sums why wasnt the IC used instead to pay for the actual costs in a daily transaction? It was, if you havnt learnt by now any trades Japan does back to germany come off that trade the game combines all trades into one deal. So you may see itis only 141 or so, but it its really 200 it just means japan has other trades going back to germany.

What was the total Subsidy provided by the Japanese government on total costs(IC subsidy) apart from the build times?None.

Is this any different to the USA providing UK or Russia with supplies pre war?Ofcourse not. USA or USSR have supplies UK players with huge amounts of supplies pre war for many of our games going back a few years now. Now its the Axis turn to use that same strategy against the allies. Whats good for the allies is good for the axis.

Lots of questions, lots of grey areas....make it free for all.

It is.[/QUOTE]

If you had a half a brain you would understand what I am saying rather than being defensive. You dont have to be defensive...you are not guilty of anything. I dont care what deals you may or may not have. All I am trying to get accross is that only you and Japan know the exact deals that were made or what you are building for each other. What I propose is rather than you having to be defensive and expain every minor detail of your deal is that we abolish all these requirements altogether and everyone is free to trade what ever they want for anything they like. Even if they are free. Its better than trying to figure out who has paid what or hasnt, no one can check anyway. Now stop being defensive and either agree or not to agree on open trading of units. This would eliminate complicated deals and everyone can do the same thing. At the moment it is only your word we are taking here. If its open trading no one has to explain themselves.

Do you understand yet? Meathead!! For once in your pathetic excuse for a life agree with me!! :rofl:

I only used the examples above to show how it could be exploited and no one can prove anything......No one is going to sacrifice their game to give everything to another player ie USA fleet to UK or Japan Fleet to Germany.

 

[mike8472]

It is.

If you had a half a brain you would understand what I am saying rather than being defensive. You dont have to be defensive...you are not guilty of anything. I dont care what deals you may or may not have. All I am trying to get accross is that only you and Japan know the exact deals that were made or what you are building for each other. What I propose is rather than you having to be defensive and expain every minor detail of your deal is that we abolish all these requirements altogether and everyone is free to trade what ever they want for anything they like. Even if they are free. Its better than trying to figure out who has paid what or hasnt, no one can check anyway. Now stop being defensive and either agree or not to agree on open trading of units. This would eliminate complicated deals and everyone can do the same thing. At the moment it is only your word we are taking here. If its open trading no one has to explain themselves.

Do you understand yet? Meathead!! For once in your pathetic excuse for a life agree with me!! :rofl:

I only used the examples above to show how it could be exploited and no one can prove anything......No one is going to sacrifice their game to give everything to another player ie USA fleet to UK or Japan Fleet to Germany.

Sorry for me to agree with you would go against all my principals.

And I only made a reply because once again you make statements to try and paint the axis in a bad light. Yet we are only doing what the allies have done to make the UK artifically strong for a long time.

You dont have to aks or say its free trade, because it already is. I paid Japan becuase no sane player is going to let you get that for free. If they do they sacrifice there own game and runin there chances for victory. I play by my own standards and even though its within the rules for me to get them for free, I would still pay for them.

So your trying to debate a rule in and when it is already there.

I say it again for you.

Free trade is allowed

And its not my word for anything. You dont need my word as it is with in the rules these guys play with. Perhaps you should talk to the entire group before you try and change rules after only just comming back into the group to play. So get back into that hole you climbed out of , I dont see the other allies moaning about this, only Russia which has nothing to do with this. Your just scared because once again you know ill destroy the allies then come for you and you wont stop me like all those other games you blamed the allies for your capitulation to Germany. Now grow some balls major ball and fight your own war and let the allies fight there own.

 

[Majorball]

Free trade is allowed

No it was free trade within reason.......Thats out the window now so its free trade for all other than the french. No good you making a deal now which makes germany super strong in 1939...crush the UK and you pay Japan back in 1942 with some plan you have in place after you already crushed the game open in 1939 with the advantage you got.

Now it should read...free trade to all other than the French. I will go with that.

 

[mike8472]

No it was free trade within reason.......Thats out the window now so its free trade for all other than the french. No good you making a deal now which makes germany super strong in 1939...crush the UK and you pay Japan back in 1942 with some plan you have in place after you already crushed the game open in 1939 with the advantage you got.

You live in a dream world. If people want to make that kind of deal, i guess they can. How ever I would never do a deal like that and I would think any Japan player would say go and get stuffed.

Now it should read...free trade to all other than the French. I will go with that.

Why cant the french trade? If theres a human france and they trade away there whole army good luck trying to bring that up to strength or finding the manpower. Try and trade planes same problem its very costly cheaper to build your own. France can build ships but will then fall even faster making Germany stronger faster and leaving the Germans with more manpower and IC to face russia.

It is free trade. Up to players to make there own deals, there are not many which can benfit you, most are far to expensive.

 

[Majorball]

You live in a dream world. If people want to make that kind of deal, i guess they can. How ever I would never do a deal like that and I would think any Japan player would say go and get stuffed.
Why cant the french trade? If theres a human france and they trade away there whole army good luck trying to bring that up to strength or finding the manpower. Try and trade planes same problem its very costly cheaper to build your own. France can build ships but will then fall even faster making Germany stronger faster and leaving the Germans with more manpower and IC to face russia.

It is free trade. Up to players to make there own deals, there are not many which can benfit you, most are far to expensive.

You cant have the French trading their entire Navy pre war Meat head.

 

[mike8472]

You cant have the French trading their entire Navy pre war Meat head.

There all crap anyway, no chance against Bismarks. Will just had hugely to supply cost of the UK and drain there resources for alot of old useless ships. The UK already has plenty of ships they dont need more junk from france. What they need are either lots of modern CV's or a few modern Battleships.

I dont care if the UK gets all of frances fleet, just more to sink pal as there crap anyway. It will weaken the UK overall forcing more resources away from builds of modern ships.

Like I said, there is not much you can do to exploit that game, there are pros and cons for everyting. Your just looking at the advanatages without looking at the overall costs and disadvanatages.

You have to be very careful what you do as it will come back to haunt you.

 

[unmerged(63610)]

FreeTrade it is, historic or not, open strategy and fun are king, sounds interesting! its a shame i cant trade manpower or ICs

cheers guys, all part of my self education to understand the lay of the land, looks like fun!

 

[Majorball]

FreeTrade it is, historic or not, open strategy and fun are king, sounds interesting! its a shame i cant trade manpower or ICs

cheers guys, all part of my self education to understand the lay of the land, looks like fun!

Watch em squawk when we give the entire USA navy to the UK in 1939.......they can use them against the Germans then send them to the pacific to battle the Japs in 1941.

 

[mike8472]

Watch em squawk when we give the entire USA navy to the UK in 1939.......they can use them against the Germans then send them to the pacific to battle the Japs in 1941.

Do as you please. Watch yous squak when the entire Jap navy is German.

You cant win at that game as the axis powers can out produce you in modern ships until 1940 onwards, due to sliders and more IC. So your attempt at trying to scare us dosnt cut it. Go player poker with some noobs, meathead.

 

[unmerged(50486)]

I tell ya what Major, you play USA and give your whole navy to UK.

Ill play Japs.

Well see what happens.

 

[unmerged(63610)]

Watch em squawk when we give the entire USA navy to the UK in 1939.......they can use them against the Germans then send them to the pacific to battle the Japs in 1941.

The thin edge of the wedge, a Benite solution, a slide down the greasy pole........[YES MINISTER] :rofl:

 

[Majorball]

I tell ya what Major, you play USA and give your whole navy to UK.

Ill play Japs.

Well see what happens.

Easy fix..when you enter the war as Japan you still have to face off against the huge UK fleet and the USA has rebuilt a modern Navy. Meanwhile the UK can crush any German Naval resistance in 1939.

I got ideas that will see you guys moan like whores....