Aussie Monday game started 16th April 2007

[mike8472]

Ok well I am not in front of my PC now but you wouldnt have done it unless you have got a big advantage from it IC, supplies, speed etc etc...otherwise why would you do it?

Exactly. It did benifit us. Thats why we did. I get my ships a little cheaper and quicker. But I paid for it. Was it worth it, longer france campagin with more manpower lost who knows.

I will look at saves if I think something is wrong matter of fact next time I will pass the save onto a nuetral person like Joel for his comments and to keep people honest....its no diffrent to you play testing battles as you have freely admitted and think is acceptable.
I have nothing to hide and ask the other Allies first before I looked. This is a dodgy move by you to gain an unfair advantage over the UK, you got found out simple as that.

If you admit to looking at saves again then as a group we should come up with a punishment for you to penalise you for looking at Germanies save. Now you know what im building how many units I got and so on. Dont do it. We did nothing wrong, its within the rules plus I paid for every one of them.

Try an not defelct the attention to me when it is you who has done the shifty deals pre war. I feel for Gunny who tries his best to play the game properly and all the time knocks back help which is offered so as not to take advantage of things.

Im not the one looking at saves. To me from what G, and boof said it is normal practice in there games to trade units. So why you complaining.

I cant beleive you even changed the name of your ships to hide the crime. Why didnt you leave them as Japanese names if everything was ok, there must have been some guilt there?

Well normaly when a new owner buys something you name it what you want. I couldnt have Japanense names appearing in the sunk ships list to take all the glory. There were paid for once again with hard german pretzals.

Now lets get onto the real issue here and work out what is fair it and what is not fair as far as purchases are concerned to this large scale. Is it now open slather for all countries pre war?

Anyone can trade units, so its even for everyone.

My suggestion is that you pay the exact supply cost for what you buy and units cant be returned once sold. Very easy and simple.

Keep it realistic major, no one is going to sell 50 planes or 50 armour as no one can afford to do the replacments costs as there massive. It cheaper to build them yourself. Its only in small deals or select units it may be of some advanatage. We didnt think of this pre-game only came to us in mid game, some time in 1938 in remeber correctly.

Thats all I have to save, simple and easy.

 

[unmerged(50486)]

Now lets get onto the real issue here and work out what is fair it and what is not fair as far as purchases are concerned to this large scale. Is it now open slather for all countries pre war?[/QUOTE]

It always has been.

Let me just remind you right here and now Major that this is Aussie Group. We don't just load up each others saves and have a look. That is what has made our group a corner stone of tough play.

And why wouldn't he rename the ships. They were commisioned for the Germans not the Japanese, of course there gonna get kraut names.

The Guidlines we have used for trading units in the games has been fine as far as every one was concerned. The Only rule was no Free units PRE-War... And that doesnt include your shitty starting units. 10-10 games i have played USSR and USA usually give there starting interceptors to UK for nothing. As Italy usually does to Germany as well.

When Gibralter Falls, USA can send NEW MODERN DD's and CVL's to UK for free.

Our main guidline is basically so that a nation (eg. USA) doesnt start a build cue specifically for (eg. UK) to send to them pre war. If UK wants to pay USA to run 4 serials of Strat bombers for them, no Drama in my eyes.... And of course the other Key thing being no returning of the purchased units.

Germany payed for the units so no drama in my eyes..... And that is my opinion as someone who frequently gets there ass booted around as UK.

 

[Majorball]

My punishment is never to play this game again..thanks.

And Mike..I know you look at saves you just dont admit..so dont act the Angel here mate. I consulted with the Allies before doing so and as I am so far from war it makes no diffrence. I was not made aware that these trading rules were permitted pre war. Had I been made aware of this perhaps I wouldnt have got suspicuious.

You have freely admitted to play testing battles from the save to see if you would win or not and think this is ok how you can judge me I do not know.

 

[mike8472]

Ok great...didnt know about these rules..sounds good to me I will use it in future games. I didnt know trading was permitted to this scale.

My apologies for looking at save you can understand how suspicions were raised. I was not aware of German land or air builds. I can only go by what Gunny was telling me.

Be careful calling me an idiot Mike........I had suspicions and they were proved correct.

Ok major just for you I have gone and worked out just how much IC I saved. Now at the time I wanted to build the ships it would cost me 8.4 IC for 584 days thats with the attachment I got.

Japan can build them for 7.7 IC for 526 days.

If I built the Bismarck it would cost 4905 IC. Japan can built it for 4050 IC. A saving of 900 IC over 584 days. The total cost of building 8 Bismarks for Germany is 39240, for Japan 32401. A saving of 6838 IC. This saving is Equal to the cost to build about 3 lvl III Armour or 4 Fighters.

However I wouldnt pay that much for a Bismarck, with industrial techs and slider moves the build time would be about the same as Japans. I just did this as a worse case scenario. In this game i probably save enough IC for 1-2 amoured divisions if I had built all 8 myself.

I made a sacrifice to only build 12 tanks before war and go slow against the allies on land if they put up a good fight which they did, in return to build up naval power to combat the allies long term.

Even so major this is not unbalancing at all. Just a different strategy, what ever happened to the UK building some CV's. CV's rule the seas if the UK had lots now then I would be in trouble. I remeber when you and me played you would have about a dozen CV's come war.

The fact is gunny made a choice to build all these marines and armour and not build up his navy. Now hes paying a price for that. I built up my navy and I paid a price in France and Poland. It all works out.

So keep your pants on and next time you want to look at some thing, just ask. I will be honest with you.

Ya meathead.

Lets leave it at that.

 

[mike8472]

My punishment is never to play this game again..thanks.

And Mike..I know you look at saves you just dont admit..so dont act the Angel here mate. I consulted with the Allies before doing so and as I am so far from war it makes no diffrence. I was not made aware that these trading rules were permitted pre war. Had I been made aware of this perhaps I wouldnt have got suspicuious.

You have freely admitted to play testing battles from the save to see if you would win or not and think this is ok how you can judge me I do not know.

Lets keep it on issue and not go off about the other 101 one issues there always are.

Your allies should have made you aware of them. Im dont talk to you on TS in that game so I had no Idea you didnt know.

Just put it down as a miscommunication. These guys play with these rules. Its fair for everyone.

And no I dont look at saves. I do play test battles, as I like to improve my strategies and try different things to see if they work. These days I dont have much time to play much at all. If you have a problem with that go see a shrink.

Enough said. Lets leave it at that. I suggest you talk to your allies about the rules major.

 

[Majorball]

As I said in an earlier post I have no problems with it. If I think something is dodgy in the future I will pass the save onto a neutral person.

 

[unmerged(50486)]

As I said in an earlier post I have no problems with it. If I think something is dodgy in the future I will pass the save onto a neutral person.

Mistrust breeds mistrust Major.....

 

[Majorball]

Mistrust breeds mistrust Major.....

If I was going to look at the save to cheat I wouldnt be telling you :rofl:

These are the rough figures and total benefiet for the German player:

1 IC =4 supplies

German Level 4 Battleship Cost 8.4IC X 4 = 33.6 supplies
Total days for German BB production 584 Days
Total German BB cost 584 X 33.6 = 19622

Japanese Level 4 BB Cost 7.8IC X 4 = 31.2 Supplies
Total Days for Jap BB Production 420 Days
Total Japanese BB cost 420 X 31.2= 13104

Difference between German Cost and Japense Cost is 19622-13104 = 6518 Supplies

Total of 8 BB produced total saving is 8 X 6518 = 52144 Supplies

Total IC Bonous 52144 / 4 = 13036 IC

This is the equivalent to:
34 Extra Infantry divisions 1939 at 380 IC each
7 Level 3 Medium Tanks 1939 at 1917 IC each
9 Level 2 Fighters 1940 at 1390 IC each

Not only the cost issue but 164 days quicker then the German player.

Now I think this is a significant issue in 1939 and early 1940.

However I seem to be alone in this so I will drop it.

If its open to all fair enough.

 

[unmerged(50486)]

No the factor that you still mention you may have to refer it to a neutral is why i mentioned. But i agree, lets move along.


Germany might have the Ships now but it is still a massive investment. Dare i say we will ALL be watching to see thow this game pans out...


EDIT:"If I was going to look at the save to cheat I wouldnt be telling you :rofl: "

 

[unmerged(59421)]

Guys for the record. Mikes production time in days is correct for the period of time the ships were building. It is only recently that I finished researching the ship assembley line tech which took they're production time to 420 or so days. So they did infact take over 500 days to build, hence germany only saved enough IC to build maybe 2 - 4 extra tanks if that. Like mighty said the extra gearings I have gotten on my BB's are the real bonus, atleast for me in my eye's. Also not only did mike pay me in supplies with a couple of small lump sums, he also gave me resources (steel, power ect ect) as payment for the ships (which he also had to pay supplies for to get from the world market). Renaming of the ships was also my idea because I new this sought of discussion would happen if Germany had of had 8 Bismark class ships sailing up and down the English Channel flying german colours and bearing Japanese names. SE.

 

[Majorball]

Guys for the record. Mikes production time in days is correct for the period of time the ships were building. It is only recently that I finished researching the ship assembley line tech which took they're production time to 420 or so days. So they did infact take over 500 days to build, hence germany only saved enough IC to build maybe 2 - 4 extra tanks if that. Like mighty said the extra gearings I have gotten on my BB's are the real bonus, atleast for me in my eye's. Also not only did mike pay me in supplies with a couple of small lump sums, he also gave me resources (steel, power ect ect) as payment for the ships (which he also had to pay supplies for to get from the world market). Renaming of the ships was also my idea because I new this sought of discussion would happen if Germany had of had 8 Bismark class ships sailing up and down the English Channel flying german colours and bearing Japanese names. SE.

Even half those figures is still a significant advantage...no matter everything has been settled. What is for one is good for all. No complaints here.

 

[unmerged(35801)]

sheeesh.....i miss a couple of sessions......france falls....poland falls....the royal navy is defeated.......

 

[mike8472]

If I was going to look at the save to cheat I wouldnt be telling you :rofl:

These are the rough figures and total benefiet for the German player:

1 IC =4 supplies

German Level 4 Battleship Cost 8.4IC X 4 = 33.6 supplies
Total days for German BB production 584 Days
Total German BB cost 584 X 33.6 = 19622

Japanese Level 4 BB Cost 7.8IC X 4 = 31.2 Supplies
Total Days for Jap BB Production 420 Days
Total Japanese BB cost 420 X 31.2= 13104

Difference between German Cost and Japense Cost is 19622-13104 = 6518 Supplies

Total of 8 BB produced total saving is 8 X 6518 = 52144 Supplies

Total IC Bonous 52144 / 4 = 13036 IC

This is the equivalent to:
34 Extra Infantry divisions 1939 at 380 IC each
7 Level 3 Medium Tanks 1939 at 1917 IC each
9 Level 2 Fighters 1940 at 1390 IC each

Not only the cost issue but 164 days quicker then the German player.

Now I think this is a significant issue in 1939 and early 1940.

However I seem to be alone in this so I will drop it.

If its open to all fair enough.

Main mistake here Major is it wasnt 420 days to build the ships when we built them. They took the full 526 days to build.

The actual build time for my ships was from April 1938 9th till Sept 25th 1939, that is the exact time they were set to build and there completion I have checked the saves for this. Also Japan did not have the Ship building tech done until after my ships completed, so they did not take 420 days. Check the save for Sept 39 to verify that as I have. So I paid the full cost of 526 days to build them.

So by your own calculations that equals 16411 supplies, not the not the 13104 you quoted. So the total is 3307x8 = 26456 supplies bonus /4 to get the actual IC 6614.

So in conclusion like I said earlier as I already worked this out, but you dont believe me. Roughly 3 lvl III medium tanks worth, 3.4 to be exact.

Major the lesson is here, dont jump to conclusions mate, just ask me and I would have told you about the ships without all this who ha.

I did send you an email but I sent it to wrong address would have avoided all this as I sent it early today before I posted anything.

And No you wont get a 3rd party to check saves, other wise I wont play with you. You first discuss it with whom ever you have an issue with, as like today you will be suprised. You didnt know alot of the facts such as there.

1. you didnt know about the trading of units.
2. You got the ship class wrong.
3. You got the tech wrong.
4. You assume Japan had the ship building tech, it didnt until after the ships were completed. Hard to do two 1940 big techs actualy before 1940.

Mate these are all assumptions you jumped too becuase as the USSR you do not know all the facts. A simple question to me over TC or ICQ and we could have sorted it out very quickly with out this fuss.

If there person dosnt satisfy your answer then announce it to the group you are suspicious and see what the group wants to do. Will lead to an argument most likely but it wont dent your creditability by checking saves. YOu dont go off by yourself as this is a group game and lets keep it like that. All problems should be solved by the group.

Now enough of this junk, although I do enjoy a good debate, more talk of the game and the Allied ass kicking we gave them.

Edit: Opps Axis Comrade already explained all of this above. My bad.

 

[Majorball]

Main mistake here Major is it wasnt 420 days to build the ships when we built them. They took the full 526 days to build.

The actual build time for my ships was from April 1938 9th till Sept 25th 1939, that is the exact time they were set to build and there completion I have checked the saves for this. Also Japan did not have the Ship building tech done until after my ships completed, so they did not take 420 days. Check the save for Sept 39 to verify that as I have. So I paid the full cost of 526 days to build them.

So by your own calculations that equals 16411 supplies, not the not the 13104 you quoted. So the total is 3307x8 = 26456 supplies bonus /4 to get the actual IC 6614.

So in conclusion like I said earlier as I already worked this out, but you dont believe me. Roughly 3 lvl III medium tanks worth, 3.4 to be exact.

Major the lesson is here, dont jump to conclusions mate, just ask me and I would have told you about the ships without all this who ha.

I did send you an email but I sent it to wrong address would have avoided all this as I sent it early today before I posted anything.

And No you wont get a 3rd party to check saves, other wise I wont play with you. You first discuss it with whom ever you have an issue with, as like today you will be suprised. You didnt know alot of the facts such as there.

1. you didnt know about the trading of units.
2. You got the ship class wrong.
3. You got the tech wrong.
4. You assume Japan had the ship building tech, it didnt until after the ships were completed. Hard to do two 1940 big techs actualy before 1940.

Mate these are all assumptions you jumped too becuase as the USSR you do not know all the facts. A simple question to me over TC or ICQ and we could have sorted it out very quickly with out this fuss.

If there person dosnt satisfy your answer then announce it to the group you are suspicious and see what the group wants to do. Will lead to an argument most likely but it wont dent your creditability by checking saves. YOu dont go off by yourself as this is a group game and lets keep it like that. All problems should be solved by the group.

Now enough of this junk, although I do enjoy a good debate, more talk of the game and the Allied ass kicking we gave them.

Edit: Opps Axis Comrade already explained all of this above. My bad.

I will keep it going until I have the last say. As Stalin has already pointed out he only recently got the ship building tech and I already replied to that saying even if half the figures are correct it is still a siginificant saving otherwise there is no reason to do it. You keep repeating yourself over and over again there is no reason to keep stating the same things. It annoys me that you have done it to this scale. It seems to me that you always got to have some sort of advantage over someone else who has been knocking back help from his allies all the time.
The savings were enough for you to buy those ships of the Japs.
You didnt you have to go and buy those ships from Japan pre war.
You are always stretching the boundaries of this game.

The save issue is another seperate issue all together. It was done after informing the Allies at the end of the session. You do not need to mention it again I have already said it wont be done again so you get stop using it as justification for your dodgy pre war deals. I dont give a squat if you paid for them. As if the UK doesnt have a hard enough time already.

And I will repeat myself again...As I stated in my very first post..I do not care and I am happy that everyone is permitted to do the same sort of deals. If you respond again I will continue the debate your not going to get the last say over me :wacko:

The only reason I even posted in the first place was you were up to your normal tricks of boasting about Bismarks sinking this and that when they were actually Japanese ships and at no stage did you say they were bought from the Japanese. End of story.

 

[Majorball]

sheeesh.....i miss a couple of sessions......france falls....poland falls....the royal navy is defeated.......

Where have you been!!!

 

[Majorball]

Mike
BTW you can have last say if you want

You know I cant help myself....

 

[mike8472]

I will keep it going until I have the last say. As Stalin has already pointed out he only recently got the ship building tech and I already replied to that saying even if half the figures are correct it is still a siginificant saving otherwise there is no reason to do it. You keep repeating yourself over and over again there is no reason to keep stating the same things. It annoys me that you have done it to this scale. It seems to me that you always got to have some sort of advantage over someone else who has been knocking back help from his allies all the time.

I think everything has been explained clearly now, so even a meat head like you can understand. :rofl:
Ofcourse its an advanatage. Is it any more of anadvanatage of those shonky trade deals you said you can do, all the spying you do of AI nations to rape there tech. Your taking advanatage of the game. Does anyone complain, no as it is within the rules. So there is no basis here for your complaint, hence why your the only person complaining, as it is allowed with in our rules.

The savings were enough for you to buy those ships of the Japs.
You didnt you have to go and buy those ships from Japan pre war.
You are always stretching the boundaries of this game.

Allready answered above. Its within the rules, everyone is allowed to do it. Get over it meat head.

The save issue is another seperate issue all together. It was done after informing the Allies at the end of the session. You do not need to mention it again I have already said it wont be done again so you get stop using it as justification for your dodgy pre war deals. I dont give a squat if you paid for them. As if the UK doesnt have a hard enough time already.

Not my problem if the UK has a hard enough time already, my job is to kill the UK not be nice to them.
The fact remains, no one has ever built this many Battleships before. Ive done it as a test to see how useful they will be. Why havny others bult them before, because CV's rule the ocean. If I come across a large CV fleet im likely to get hammered all over the ocean until I can get away. But so far all ive seen from the UK is Battleship fleets. If the UK choses to build marines and armour thats its problem. If it neglects its fleet and dosnt build a few more CV's pre war then it may pay the price. Gunny has so far, the price of intevening in france with all those special units.
This is all part of a larger Axis strategy we worked out early in the game, this is just one part of it. I cant reveal more as it will wreak our game.

And I will repeat myself again...As I stated in my very first post..I do not care and I am happy that everyone is permitted to do the same sort of deals. If you respond again I will continue the debate your not going to get the last say over me :wacko:

Allready answered above. I think you got Bi-polar.

The only reason I even posted in the first place was you were up to your normal tricks of boasting about Bismarks sinking this and that when they were actually Japanese ships and at no stage did you say they were bought from the Japanese. End of story.

Ofcourse im allowed to boast. I paid for very expensive ships and they kicked the crap out of the UK fleet. Gunny is so scared about me hes not focusing on Italy and soon spain. There German ships paid for in full. If you dont like that tough, to bad. You just sit in your rat hole in Moscow becuasing im comming for you next, you aint going to stop what I got installed for you. You should we worried about that.

 

[Majorball]

Ok Mike has had final say..end of story :rofl:

 

[unmerged(59421)]

Can you please ensure you edit in the chinese leaders for next session and remove the chinese trade embargoe against japan. SE.

 

[unmerged(5892)]

On second thoughts after reading all this, maybe not having as much time to play as I used to isn't a bad thing...



Anyways, keep enjoying it, and remember it's about having fun, not about IC days.