Aussie Group Rules discussion.

[mike8472]

The reason me, joel and mighty are saying this is its up to the player attacking and trying to surround troops to tie them down and not allow them to SR out.

You use your tanks for taking the provinces to close the gap, you use other units such as infantry in another smaller battle to keep there forces engaged and airpower to crush them. Why do you need a rule if you can do the same with in the game. We do not need rules for every type of battle or strategy players use. Its up to other players to counter it or prevent it. This situation is totaly preventable if you use the right strategy.

On another point, if you make encircling alot easier, how does that benifit the game with one player losing so many divisions. I often dont go for encircling lots of troops as i prefer a long game not a short one won in 1941. A much more satisfying victory wining in 43 or later in a pure slug fest.

Also why would we want to implement a rule that would benifit the germans more in the first years of the war when in 2 recent games as Germany ive hammered the USSR for various reasons. If you want to encircle troops you need to plan it carefully like you need to plan invasions, it sohuldnt be an event that happens all the time, otherwise it would be one quick war.

Every time we change rules it can drasitcly unbalance the game. Leave it to the players to do there attacks correct if they want to surround and destroy units, this sohuld not be an easy feat.

 

[mike8472]

Joel if you read the email I sent you you would find this doesnt even need discussing. I cant see it happening in the future...I think it was a once off.

The same thing can be said of there being no russian german war in the last game major, but you felt the need to rush in a rule. Even though this has never ever happend in any games.

What has happened to playing a few games and seeing if the situation continues to be a problem.

Also why are we RAMMING this rule through it waso only proposed this afternoon. How about we allow a few days for people to comment before we implemant a massive game altering rule.

Take a step back and think how this rule will alter the game. I am totaly against it as i can see the rule resulting in a massive and easy victory for germany in the opening months of the war in Russia.

Also think historicaly. In any pockets during war, nearly every vehicle or train is ued to evac soldiers out by any means. Just look at dunkirk over a few days 300,000 allied troops escaped. Even in stalingrad (wanst 600,000 troops like major claims it was 250,000) most of the german forces escaped, all but the 6th army. At one stage the entire souther front was in danger, nearly 1.5 million troops, and this was the oringal soviet plan to trap them. But they escaped.

It should be extremely hard to surround forces and to destroy them.

Let people discuss this for a few days and mull it over. Why the rush.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

I seen HOI2 DOOMSDAY in the shops. $69.95


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[Majorball]

Whatever you like Mike..we can see you are use to having massive airpower and good attacking units. If your happy to have 40 divisions vanish in thin air within a few seconds fine. Lets see what everyone else says first. No one is ramming anything down your throat..It is in this thread for discussion and up for vote. You have made your point. I dont see how it makes it easy for Germany. I rarely have a need to SR more then a single division away from trouble anyway.
I am sure Italy would be happy to land behind the Allied lines in Africa and have all the UK armies SR out through the desert instantly on camel back and sand trains.

 

[Majorball]

Take a step back and think how this rule will alter the game. I am totaly against it as i can see the rule resulting in a massive and easy victory for germany in the opening months of the war in Russia.

How so? If the German player tries to suround divisions he runs the risk of being surrounded himself and not be able to SR away when things turn to shit.
Look I dont really care anymore, I proposed something I feel strongly about...its as bad as disbanding armies that are surrounded in my oponion. Lets see what others have to say first. Its not up to me and you.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Well how about we give it a trail next game? Lets not introduce new rules mid game.


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[Majorball]

Well how about we give it a trail next game? Lets not introduce new rules mid game.


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Well thats a good idea....Next game I propose will have it in the rules

 

[System Lord]

I cant vote yes to the rule in its current form as to my thinking it is absurd to allow strat deployment of troops in any situation other then rear lines. Withdrawing a combat unit off the front lines is a gradual process as it must be replaced piecemeal with a replacement unit or else the front collapses and the unit is destroyed.

Strat deplyment in the real sense can and should only occur when the unit is not involved in combat and is not in the front line. All you need to do is look at battles like Stalingrad or the Korsun pocket where huge forces were surrounded and destroyed. They did not magically deploy themselves back behind the lines. Nor can units be pulled off the front easily, look at Montgomerys army in the battle of the Bulge. He was unable to move for at least 2 weeks as he required replacement troops to take over for the armour at the front.

In a nutshell strat deployment should only occur in areas not directly involved in combat. Deploying from Germany to the Warsaw is fine when the front is near Moscow but from Warsaw to Berlin is not ok when the front is on the Vistula! I trust I made my point.

P.S Go see Pirates 2 its great!

 

[Majorball]

I cant vote yes to the rule in its current form as to my thinking it is absurd to allow strat deployment of troops in any situation other then rear lines. Withdrawing a combat unit off the front lines is a gradual process as it must be replaced piecemeal with a replacement unit or else the front collapses and the unit is destroyed.

Strat deplyment in the real sense can and should only occur when the unit is not involved in combat and is not in the front line. All you need to do is look at battles like Stalingrad or the Korsun pocket where huge forces were surrounded and destroyed. They did not magically deploy themselves back behind the lines. Nor can units be pulled off the front easily, look at Montgomerys army in the battle of the Bulge. He was unable to move for at least 2 weeks as he required replacement troops to take over for the armour at the front.

In a nutshell strat deployment should only occur in areas not directly involved in combat. Deploying from Germany to the Warsaw is fine when the front is near Moscow but from Warsaw to Berlin is not ok when the front is on the Vistula! I trust I made my point.

P.S Go see Pirates 2 its great!

I take it thats a yes?

I doubt we will have this on our existing games...probably worth trialling in a new game if we get a few more yes votes. I think everyone would be happy to give it a go in a new game. As Mike says it is untrialled but certainly would force people to fight.

 

[Ric O'Shea]

Well if its going to be trialed then I vote yes, simply to see if it unbalances the game and so Major can have his piece of mind. If the next game ends November 1941 with the Germans in Moscow because the Soviet player couldn't keep his army from being encircled then we drop the rule.

Edit: Although I think Sunday games shouldn't have their rules too tampered with until we have a consensus that its a good rule as they are the ones that take the longest amount of time to get running. So trials for future rules should be done in the games that go a lot faster and are run during the week.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

I dont know if it could be done but if Paradox could fix it so that whan a unit uses SR it stays in the originating area for a few (1 or 2 ) days (reorging for SR) after ordered to move before dissapearing.


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[unmerged(49192)]

I vote with major YES
So YES rules if i count right :}

 

[unmerged(25040)]

vote

I vote no - I agree with Joel 100%.

There are in built penalties which abound if you SR.

I still urge - as a separate issue the playing of the 38 scen to alleviate most of the other problems like WE and axis uber aggression.

Quite simply the armies will be much smaller and thus less lethal - creating more caution.

As for our midweek game and its current status, it is by far the best game we have played and has the potential for years to come - with a western vs warsaw pact style war to follow. Great!!!

 

[Majorball]

I vote no - I agree with Joel 100%.

There are in built penalties which abound if you SR.

I still urge - as a separate issue the playing of the 38 scen to alleviate most of the other problems like WE and axis uber aggression.

Quite simply the armies will be much smaller and thus less lethal - creating more caution.

As for our midweek game and its current status, it is by far the best game we have played and has the potential for years to come - with a western vs warsaw pact style war to follow. Great!!!

Maybe how yo ufeel being on the domianting side. Well in my oponion artificaial invasions liek Joel did on Denmark and withdrawing. My peace with Japs which seperated the Allies from China. We have diliberately doen things to extend the game.
I am happy to play on but its 1942 and Germany has completely collapsed.
Let see what others have to say.

 

[unmerged(5892)]

Maybe how yo ufeel being on the domianting side. Well in my oponion artificaial invasions liek Joel did on Denmark and withdrawing. My peace with Japs which seperated the Allies from China. We have diliberately doen things to extend the game.
I am happy to play on but its 1942 and Germany has completely collapsed.
Let see what others have to say.

I think I for one won't agree to any new rules until we agree again on some old ones such as capital isolation, pre-war unit trading, and the whole CW minor movement restrictions.

Why bother making new rules, when the old ones are being broken?

 

[Majorball]

A draft of Current Aussie house rules. If any one has access to a webpage I can put a hyperlink in for the word document this was copied from. It is still under work. Please make any comments you like. Its a bit messy as it was copied from a word doc.

1) All rule discussions will take place on the Paradox forums under the appropriate thread.

2) Semi Historical game.

Diplomacy and war entry guidelines

3) No major or minor war until Danzig event unless already at war or by an event.

4) No one may Ally an minor country until the Danzig event has fired. Then anyone may Ally anyone they choose.

5) Guidelines for USA & Japan entry:
a) Base USA war entry is 1st January 1942.

b) Each seperate Axis DOW/Alliance with the following countries: Turkey, Spain,Tibet, Persia brings forward USA entry by 6 months eg and attack on Spain would allow USA to join the war 1 July 1941(may not DOW Japan unless Tibet was the country attacked). If Turkey and Persia are DOW/brought in to alliance USA may enter 1st January 1941.Italy may enter when Paris is captured and it must be after March 1940.

c) The reverse is also true: Should the UK ally with anyone of the above countries USA war entry is put back 6 months.No CW troops in the Med(SA,NZ & and Australia must remain in their home provinces until Italy is in the war).

d) However Japan may DOW UK & USA anytime from start of 1941 & USA may enter immediately should Japan DOW on the UK. Saying this any events which fire due to a successful Sealion may be honoured.The only CW puppets allowed in the Med prior to war with Italy are Oman, Yemen and Iraq.

e) Should Gibralter be captured the USA may send unlimited Destroyers and CVL ships to the UK. This in adddition to the 6 months reduction for Spanish attack. This is needed for the extra length of UK convoys.Canadian troops may be deployed to Europe or the UK only after Danzig event.

f) Also should Russia not be attacked by 1st June 1942 the USA may enter the European war at anytime.This is needed so we do not end up with a facical UK vs German/Italy for years on end because of some deal made with the Russians.

g) If Russia decides to enter the war over a Sweden or Turkey attack the 6 month reduction for USA entry does not apply.

h) USA is not required to join...but they may.

6) Guidelines for Italian war entry:

a) Italy may enter when Paris is captured and it must be after March 1940.

b) No CW troops in the Med(SA,NZ & and Australia must remain in their home provinces until Italy is in the war).

c) The only CW puppets allowed in the Med prior to war with Italy are Oman, Yemen and Iraq.

d) Canadian troops may be deployed to Europe or the UK only after Danzig event.

e) CW troops may leave their home country if an Ally brought into the Axis in their region. These troops can only be used for attacking such a minor and Axis forces within that country.

7) Guidelines for Russia & Japan war:

a) Neither Russia or Japan may DOW each other until 1st January 1943 and Russia must be at war with Germany.

b) Both Russia and Japan must garrison all common borders with 1 division of any type.

c) No country other than those agreed for USA in 5e may trade and military units with a Human player until both countries are involved in a war with a common enemy.

8) Guidelines for Russia & Germany war:

a) What ever is negotiated through NAP and Ribbontop pact.


9) Trading of military units:

a) No country other than those agreed for USA in 5e may trade and military units with a Human player until both countries are involved in a war with a common enemy.

b) A human controlled France must not trade away any military units.

10) A human controlled France must accept Vichy.

11) No one may influence a Human controlled country without their permission.

12) Spies:

a) No one may attempt to kill any ministers or leaders from a country they are not at war with.

b) No other restrictions apply.

Supply exploits

13) Basing of troops in minor Allies:

a) Apart from the exceptions below no one may base any military units in a minor ally or puppet to save supply costs.

b) If Italy puppets Eithopia they may leave the units that started there.

c) Oweing to Japans small IC base they base a troops in their puppets prewar as they are large countries and a big garrison force is not unrealistic. They may not however give territory to a puppet pre war for the purpose of basing naval units at a major port.

d) Puppeting of a country pre war is permitted but not to save supply costs. No foreign troops are permitted in such puppeted countries until 3 months before that country enters the war.

14) Surrounded capital exploit:

a) A capital may not be diliberatley surrounded for the purpose of preventing supplies and convoys from being sent from such a province.

b) If a capital is left vacant it must be occupied if troops are available for such a purpose with regards to other players military requirements. If a situation arises that the basing of a large number of foreign troops are also out of supply due to the above situation it needs to be brought to the attention of the country causing such a situation and it will be corrected at the early convenience.

Trading of resources, provinces & blueprints with other countries

15) Resources:

a) Any resource any be trading with any other country.

b) The Allies may not trade for rares in the first month of the game. They may accept any trade offered.

c) No one may trade for any resource in the first 7 days of a new game. From the 7th January 1936 you can trade with anyone you like. You may however accept any deal offered by an AI.

16) Blueprints:

a) No restrictions on trading blueprints with Allies or stealing them.

17) Provinces:

a) No one may trade provinces for the purpose of preventing Annexation of a country.

b) Provinces may be bought and sold freely from and country. A human controlled France is prohibited from giving away provinces and puppeting until January 1st 1941.

Military

18) Military access:

a) No one is permitted to allow military access to foreign troops unless they are at war with a common enemy.

b) The USA does receive military access to the UK through events but this may not be used until the USA is at war with Germany.

c) If you manage to gain Military access to a neutral minor your forces may pass though but may not launch attacks from such a country.

19) Surrounded armies:

a) May not be disbanded when totally surrounded to save manpower.


20) Naval Bugs:

a) Pause the game. Ask the host to save. Discuss with your opponent the situation. If after discussion its decided they are bugged and its going to game breaking the attacking player must break off all attacks naval and air. The affected player is to tell the other player when his forces have reached the next province then attacks may commence. A small group of naval units passing in the middle of hostile territory that gets attack and more than likely be destroyed is not sufficent. It must be a game breaking situation.

b) Preventing such bugs can be avoided by the following:
Avoid long distance rebasing through hostile waters. Wait a minimum 4 hours before retreating from a naval battle. When selecting a retreat province avoid selecting a port not in that province. When setting ORG and strength for missions set it to 80-90% rather then the default 50% your units will retreat by themselves.

21) Air units:

a) Air units that have been given a rebase command and keep retreating back to a base about to be captured must be permitted to leave such a province. To keep engaging them to prevent such a rebasing mission is not in the spirit of the game. The damage done to such units is more then enough penalty.

b) This does not apply to normal missions only to those on a base about to be captured by enemy ground units.

22) All games to be played until a group vote decides otherwise. A tie means the game will contiue. Players must abide by the vote if they wish to continue playing in the Aussie group

 

[unmerged(16810)]

I have yet to read the rules.


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We playing tonight or will Mike be out searching for his dummy?


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[mike8472]

The rules seem fine so far.

For the rule with only moving units 1 month prior to war to a puppet. You might want to extend that to 3. Nations such as italy dont have many TPs and with organising armies and so on it takes time. A 3 month limit would be better.

 

[System Lord]

All seem fine to me.

 

[Majorball]

The rules seem fine so far.

For the rule with only moving units 1 month prior to war to a puppet. You might want to extend that to 3. Nations such as italy dont have many TPs and with organising armies and so on it takes time. A 3 month limit would be better.

Ok his seems fair..consider it ammeded.