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HolisticGod

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All,

Siege attrition has actually looked pretty good. I imagine as castles get bigger, it becomes far likelier that sieges will fail, particularly in MP where players intelligently build up infrastructure and maneuver, thus ending most wars inconclusively.

However, I am dismayed by how little attrition there is when on the march. It's much, much too easy to concentrate armies, which, of course, was fairly rare until the 18th century. Perhaps the actual solution is to make pillage much more lucrative and dangerous to the defender, so that you can afford to just let small regiments march around your lands and thus have to keep your forces divided most of the time. But it does seem that CK II's engine is right on the verge of delivering more realistic maneuver (i.e., units are arrayed across several counties rather than clumped together to fight pitched battles) and attrition is the most obvious answer. Perhaps a progressive modifier could be used-when a large number of troops gather in a single province, they at first suffer ordinary attrition, then more and more as they exhaust local supplies and get hit with pestilence until finally the army disintegrates.

It also appears that the Alps can only be passed at certain places? Is this correct? I haven't played there, but when trying to march an army (from Poland) as an experiment, it seemed that way. Is this also true of rivers? Forests? Other regions? If not, could it be modded so that it is?

It would be frankly fantastic if the Rhine could only be crossed in certain counties (simulating permanent bridges), and ditto the Danube, Carpathians, etc. It's imperfect without an MA system, but at the very least it would allow for more interesting maneuver if the holder of the choke point is an actual combatant.
 

HolisticGod

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Hroppa,

Yeah, that's what it looked like. I should have posted that separately, as it's on tangentially related to attrition insofar as both would help make warfare more realistic-far fewer stacks and large pitched battles.

Do you know if they're moddable? It would be great to place a few along the major rivers, forests, deserts, etc., in an MP-only scenario.
 

Maginor

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Well, most of the armies are tiny any way. I know that the attrition becomes noticeable when you have armies sized in the thousands in hostile terrain (i.e. deserts).
 

Hroppa

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They've been modded into the Westeros map for the Game of Thrones mod, so yes, impassable borders are very much moddable.

(Someone should correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the idea for them actually originated in a mod; someone stuck a long thin impassable province between two provinces, and hey presto, impassable borders)

Edit: And attrition is thoroughly moddable. There are quite a few attrition modifiers in the files which seem like they're not being used by the game at the moment (at least, I haven't noticed winter having an effect on attrition); it looks like the devs took them out to make gameplay smoother. I'd definitely play a mod that made combat more realistic.
 

HolisticGod

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Hroppa,

Including an MP game? :D

There's already a Westeros map for the Game of Thrones mod?
 

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There are quite a few attrition modifiers in the files which seem like they're not being used by the game at the moment (at least, I haven't noticed winter having an effect on attrition); it looks like the devs took them out to make gameplay smoother. I'd definitely play a mod that made combat more realistic.

With less than 20 years in the demo, being forced to go to winter quarters a big chunk of the time would be extra annoying. Also, winter would leave a lot scope for campaigning the farther north or higher you go. Around the Med you can campaign year-round.
 

Zarco

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Yeah, maybe high attrition is disabled in the demo.
 

Subcomandante

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Levy size changes with the buildup of the provinces. I had one game going to the 1180s with the 400 year demo patch and the Kaiser had 70.000 soldiers altogether 100 years in ... from 20-25k at game start.

There is attrition in the demo alright. In one France game I went with 12000 soldiers into a 10k capacity province, it was 5% attrition per month. And because sieges still take months, I soon arrived at capacity.
 

HolisticGod

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Subcomandante,

I wonder how high attrition goes...

That Kaiser's army (70K) in 1166 is pretty disturbing. I would hope that the way the politics work out, the Kaiser can virtually never mobilize all his levies at once.

But more importantly, no matter what the levies end up being, large army concentrations should be relatively rare. To put 25-30K in a pre-modern army and march halfway across Germany would require an enormous amount of money, food, political goodwill, etc. Much better to have small detachments shifting through the theater, guarding provinces, looting, seeking footholds, etc.

Hroppa,

We're starting a test game on Sundays. You can follow my handle for the link.

My hope is that house rules, suggestions for the developers (who, at least in Johan's case, have always been open to the specific concerns of the MP community despite our being a tiny, tiny fraction of their customer base) and a multiplayer realism mod (I have nicknamed it A Distant Mirror - Putting the Medieval Back Into Medieval Europe) will come out of it.
 

Subcomandante

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That Kaiser's army (70K) in 1166 is pretty disturbing. I would hope that the way the politics work out, the Kaiser can virtually never mobilize all his levies at once.

But more importantly, no matter what the levies end up being, large army concentrations should be relatively rare. To put 25-30K in a pre-modern army and march halfway across Germany would require an enormous amount of money, food, political goodwill, etc. Much better to have small detachments shifting through the theater, guarding provinces, looting, seeking footholds, etc.

That's what happened, there were no detachments larger than 10k moving around. When two big AI dukes rebelled and I saw that they fielded 25k levies I thought it was an easy win for them, but then I learned that whatever you do, the AI Kaiser always has one doomstack more than you!
 

HolisticGod

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You mean the AI wasn't concentrating more than 10K at a time even when it had 25K available?

If so, that's great news. I hope whatever deters them also deters humans.