Attributes- Learning- the WORTHLESS one.... can it be made interesting/important?

[Dearmad]

Stewardship: Yep, this one is good. No argument. More demesne, more monay, thankee!
Diplomacy: Handy if you play the political game and need to keep together a disparate realm. I can see how it helps.
Intrigue: Oh yes, I don't want to die at the hands of a viper, and I DO need to kill occasionally... and finding intrigues and locking people up and banishing them is great! LIke this trait.

Martial: Excellent for generals, obviously. ANd warrior kings.

Learning: Uh... wtf?? I can figure out castle level 3 in the realm 1 month FASTER than you can! Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyaaah nyah!

So yes. Learning is the great LOST attribute. This attribute could be made more important by developing a DLC for the papacy, curia, whole ecclesiastical part of the game and make this trait important in the political machinations of that realm.

Or something?

Anyone have any ideas. Because it's just about meaningless. Only my chaplain cares and only so he can keep the Pope or Patriarchs off my back. A one use trait like this is sorta weak.

 

[Isaios]

My first inclination is to link this to Muslim decadence. Higher learning equals lower decadence, maybe even a reversing.

I'll think it over some more.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

While I agree that it could use some other benefits, it's hardly useless. It ups all your tech across the board.

If you're playing in Spain, maybe it doesn't seem a big deal. But if you're in Russia or Northern Europe it can make a real difference. One additional tech level across the board can mean a significantly bigger retinue, with 10% better attack / defense across the board, one extra set of military buildings in every holding with those additional troops, an extra demense slot for an extra castle, and a small relations bonus with all your vassals.

Two extra tech -- you've focused on tech all game -- means double that.

People who neglect tech and don't understand how it works are making a huge mistake. It doesn't make a big impact in a decade or two. In a century or two, it can significantly increase your power -- especially when you're ahead of your neighbors. Retinues make this even more the case because they take all their stats from your capital, and tech determines your retinue size. It's a long game thing, and it takes real focus to influence, but it matters. Actually, a lot.

Also with retinues, your personal power now mostly comes from your retinue by mid-game. In a big realm, your retinue will be many times the size of your personal levies. And retinues take all stats from capital technology. So you really want a high tech capital if you can get one.

That said, I would never give my king a theologian education. But I would rather have a king with high learning than high intrigue. I actually think intrigue is the worst stat. Unless it's very high, and you're off assassinating people all the time, it really doesn't matter that much.

I rank them:

1. Diplomacy (make this Stewardship for small realms with few vassals)
2. Stewardship (make this Diplomacy for small realms with few vassals)
3. Learning
4. Intrigue

 

[Hastings1066]

I think it also affects the education of children in the game as well. A lower learning stat will make it more difficult to educate wards in other attributes, or at least that's what I heard.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

It's also handy for a handful of events. A high learning means you can actually GAIN piety when telling the Pope to leave your Free Investiture alone - and not suffer a opinion penalty to boot!

 

[Isaios]

It's also handy for a handful of events. A high learning means you can actually GAIN piety when telling the Pope to leave your Free Investiture alone - and not suffer a opinion penalty to boot!

I love this event. Though I always only get 1 Piety. Seems a bit odd.

 

[Veetor]

I think it also affects the education of children in the game as well. A lower learning stat will make it more difficult to educate wards in other attributes, or at least that's what I heard.

I have always wondered that, what affects the children stats gain? Learning? Or diplomacy, because when you press the "educate child" button, the list always defaults in order to the highest diplomacy

 

[Westernesse]

Definitely, the one stat I don't pay much attention too, it adds very little piety compared to being one of zealous or chaste or humble. Ideally I'd like it to be 13+, but there isn't much advantage after 13 and if you have to pick a ruler in one stat (elective) piety is the one I choose. My tech is usually still ahead of the year its supposed to be developed in anyway and 5 piety vs 15 piety matters very little when you've got -70% or -80% ahead penalties.

My next weakest stat is martial for a duke or higher ruler, but that's because you can have other people fight your battles, while its hard to compensate for a character with low diplomacy, stewardship or intrigue.

I've made a topic about piety being to weak before, so it needs something. Maybe learning should be helpful in battle? Those that are more learned/intelligent are more likely to think of/try new tactics. So maybe it should follow the tactics tech and give a small morale bonus to all troops? Say .01 or .02 morale per learning on the leader. This would make it less important for battles than martial, but still be a boost. If that won't work make it up your chance for culture/religious changes all the way up to 20 learning on the character.

 

[SRM]

/me laughs at all those who say Learning is worthless from atop his fully-upgraded capital as twenty thousand Cataphracts swarm all who oppose him

 

[unmerged(26764)]

/me laughs at all those who say Learning is worthless from atop his fully-upgraded capital as twenty thousand Cataphracts swarm all who oppose him

Exactly this.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

If that won't work make it up your chance for culture/religious changes all the way up to 20 learning on the character.

I assume you're referring to the chance of culture/religion shifting your demense, because I hardly need more popups telling me my German ruler ruling over German vassals wants to become Italian just because his capital is Rome >.>

 

[Frozen_Predator]

I assume you're referring to the chance of culture/religion shifting your demense, because I hardly need more popups telling me my German ruler ruling over German vassals wants to become Italian just because his capital is Rome >.>

its actually stewardship that affects culture shifts (at least of the county)

 

[unmerged(512626)]

That said, I would never give my king a theologian education. But I would rather have a king with high learning than high intrigue. I actually think intrigue is the worst stat. Unless it's very high, and you're off assassinating people all the time, it really doesn't matter that much.

I rank them:

1. Diplomacy (make this Stewardship for small realms with few vassals)
2. Stewardship (make this Diplomacy for small realms with few vassals)
3. Learning
4. Intrigue

Maybe it's different on kingdom level and/or I'm prioritizing wrong but I think intrigue is pretty important. If I can't train a Grey Eminence, I often go Elusive Shadow -- when I don't *need* high stewardship. Otherwise, I opt for balanced stats at times.

Intrigue/diplo is generally what I look for in a wife as I generally have far more trouble getting decent spymasters than other posts. I tend not to have a huge demise by the way, and don't attempt claims 24/7 (I prefer tight, strong kingdoms with slowish steady growth until it reaches de jure -- while the rest of my dynasty rules elsewhere). I may change that tactic in the future.

Anyway, back to Spymasters:

Sometimes they are murdered even at 20+ so I like to have a decent base. Also, what happens if your wife hates you -- cause the AI forced an affair or you just fail at compatibility -- or you have an 80-year-old wife and you need to get rid of her (and the Pope doesn't like you) to produce heirs -- yet she has good intrigue.

I know I've had a fair number of events where people tried to kill me as well and I assume failed due to my state intrigue -- which every bit would help I"d think.

That said, I can't really argue with Valinn's order of priority if only for the retinues. Other than that I think intrigue is important, but I wouldn't sacrifice entirely just for learning, but that may be perception and/or more compatible with how I play.

 

[Cymsdale]

/me laughs at all those who say Learning is worthless from atop his fully-upgraded capital as twenty thousand Cataphracts swarm all who oppose him

With all those upgrades, the game will be over in less than a month anyway.

 

[Ols]

When I start as one province counts I always choose intrigue education. It's extremely useful to become your liege's spymaster because you can plot so easily against him, and acquire enough land that force of arms expansion becomes viable. Quite often my played characters are first Intrigue, then Martial, then Stewardship, then Learning, then Diplomacy as I get my realm together and address my priorities. By my fifth ruler, I'm usually trying to hold things together or address problems with other realms, so I prefer to have people like me rather than build up.