Attacking Hungary with an obsolete army

[_karl_]

Hi,

I'm in 1938 with Republican Spain having puppeted Albania and Yugoslavia to prevent Italy from grabing it. Now I want to attack Hungary, before it joins the Axis (originally the aim was to continue with Czechoslovakia before the Sudetes crisis, but I will clearly not have time). I've declared the war to Hungary just a few hours before winning the war in Yugoslavia, so that I don't have to rebuy my war policies. The bad thing is that Yugoslavia is not in the war, the good thing is that Yugoslavia is not in the war (I have a fully secured border from which I can launch raids and surprise attacks). Except if I reduce their National Unity by 10% (which is probably going to take a very long time, isn't it?), I absolutely need to take Budapest (plus a city on the border which is very easy to take, or the VP on the East on which I can easily dash with my cavalry).

I've already tried 4 times to take this city, reloading the save file. At some points I have been relatively close to a success, but I've finally failed 4 times.
The main problem is that my army is completely obsolete, as leadership is very scarce for Spain. I mainly have infantry, with just a few artillery and AT. I also have cavalry and a few light armours but those are completely useless in a fight, I can only use them to capture empty provinces. In front of them there's an army which is infantry-based as well, no heavy armours and so on, but they have very good techs in infantry so that their org is twice mine, and they have more combined arms bonuses. They also have a very capable air force, which I have been able to immobilise on one of my 4 trials, but most of the time they get a clear air superiority.
The second problem is that once I arrive in front of Budapest and can finally be in a position to attack with my big stacks, I necessarily take a "river crossing" penalty (on top of the "urban" penalty), Budapest is surrounded by rivers in just any direction. I actually have 2 freshly built brigade of Engineers that I could send there to help, but that's probably not enough to reverse the table, and they will need a few weeks to come from Catalunya to Hungary.
Also, my technologies do not allow a genuine blitz, it takes one week between two attacks, and I've never been in a situation where Budapest was undefended when I arrive (I think there is one division -and a few HQ- in Budapest from day 1).

Would any of you have some genius idea I would not have thought about?

Or do you think I should abandon this project and come back after having puppeted Romania, then Bulgaria, then attack with both Yugoslavia and Romania helping me?

 

[Von Faulkenstein]

Don't suppose you could provide a screenshot of the situation? Would help to know your exact force composition and where they are.

If you haven't dedicated any LS to the main infantry techs and doctrines over the last two years then yeah, you're going to find it really difficult to win battles. That re-org time will really hurt because the best chance of victory when facing an enemy with superior tech is to out-manoeuvre them but if your forces require a week between attacks then the task will be that much tougher. Unfortunately this is all compounded by the high probability that their air force is mostly licensed [from Germany], so you could be facing Stukas which will really do a number on your organisation, despite probably only possessing one or two wings.

What has your LS been going towards if not infantry stuff? I would suggest that you try to circumvent the river crossings by putting holding forces on your side of the river(s) while moving your main attack force across at a point where there is no enemy force. It's only been a couple of years so Hungary won't be very much further on their techs than yourself; if you concentrate your units you should be able to overpower theirs. Make use of those cav/LARM units as recon so you know where the enemy is in force.

 

[_karl_]

OK, I've done a series of screenshots : http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/...westfirst&browsefilter=myfiles&view=imagewall
Most of the pictures are just a few hours after me declaring the war, then I spend a lot of time to prepare on the border without any action happening. I've also made two screenshots of a typical Budapest battle so that you see the modifiers.
It also allowed me to look at the problems more in details: the technological gap is not as obvious as I thought, it seems to mainly consist in one level of "Infantry Warfare"
Maybe the fact I'm low on manpower also has a part of responsability, maybe the hungarian army can replenish between two battles and not me.
I do use my LS for infantry stuff, and almost nothing else (also industry and a bit artillery, but I have completely sacrificed my navy, which is a shame because I have much more IC than MP so I'm building a lot of ships). But it's so slow. And I started from such a bad state, with 1918 techs pretty much everywhere.

 

[Kovax]

Hungary's starting setup places fully half of their army right in Budapest. I assume that they've moved most of them to oppose you, but unless you've already tried an attack, don't assume that it's a single division. On the bright side, the original setup for HUN uses binary divisions (2xINF), so each division is relatively weak.

Infantry techs aren't the main problem, but Doctrines might be a major contributing factor. Hungary has an extremely high Officer Ratio (139% from the screen shot), and 2-3 levels of the Infantry Warfare doctrine already researched, plus a few passably decent Commanders (quite a few at skill 2 and several with 3), so they've got very respectable ORG for a minor, even though they've got rather limited IC and Leadership to build up much beyond that.

Budapest was actually 2 cities originally (Buda and Pest), one on each side of the Danube, which were united in the 1800s by the building of a series of bridges. In Hungarian, the first syllable of a word ALWAYS gets accentuated, but they pronounce Buda-Pest as two equally accented parts. An attack on one side of the city would have to cross the Danube to attack the opposite side, a daunting proposition, unless the assaulting force approached and attacked from both sides. It gets the same exaggerated river defense bonus that Paris, London, and several other national capitals receive.

 

[yamato2cz]

Hi,

I'm in 1938 with Republican Spain having puppeted Albania and Yugoslavia to prevent Italy from grabing it. Now I want to attack Hungary, before it joins the Axis (originally the aim was to continue with Czechoslovakia before the Sudetes crisis, but I will clearly not have time). I've declared the war to Hungary just a few hours before winning the war in Yugoslavia, so that I don't have to rebuy my war policies. The bad thing is that Yugoslavia is not in the war, the good thing is that Yugoslavia is not in the war (I have a fully secured border from which I can launch raids and surprise attacks). Except if I reduce their National Unity by 10% (which is probably going to take a very long time, isn't it?), I absolutely need to take Budapest (plus a city on the border which is very easy to take, or the VP on the East on which I can easily dash with my cavalry).

I've already tried 4 times to take this city, reloading the save file. At some points I have been relatively close to a success, but I've finally failed 4 times.
The main problem is that my army is completely obsolete, as leadership is very scarce for Spain. I mainly have infantry, with just a few artillery and AT. I also have cavalry and a few light armours but those are completely useless in a fight, I can only use them to capture empty provinces. In front of them there's an army which is infantry-based as well, no heavy armours and so on, but they have very good techs in infantry so that their org is twice mine, and they have more combined arms bonuses. They also have a very capable air force, which I have been able to immobilise on one of my 4 trials, but most of the time they get a clear air superiority.
The second problem is that once I arrive in front of Budapest and can finally be in a position to attack with my big stacks, I necessarily take a "river crossing" penalty (on top of the "urban" penalty), Budapest is surrounded by rivers in just any direction. I actually have 2 freshly built brigade of Engineers that I could send there to help, but that's probably not enough to reverse the table, and they will need a few weeks to come from Catalunya to Hungary.
Also, my technologies do not allow a genuine blitz, it takes one week between two attacks, and I've never been in a situation where Budapest was undefended when I arrive (I think there is one division -and a few HQ- in Budapest from day 1).

Would any of you have some genius idea I would not have thought about?

Or do you think I should abandon this project and come back after having puppeted Romania, then Bulgaria, then attack with both Yugoslavia and Romania helping me?

you have problem with hungary? i wiped them out as every other nation in the region. as turkey i steam rolled them quite badly. i dont know what are you fighting against, but for me, it was quick process. truth is, i was able to finish off all minors in europe by end 36.

 

[_karl_]

but unless you've already tried an attack, don't assume that it's a single division.

I have attacked, many times. There is a lot of movement but typically they have two divisions. Two divisions with an intact and very high organisation, while my troops arrive completely exhausted. Sometimes I see only a HQ, but it seems to be only an illusion due to bad military intelligence. If I try to keep a large front I'm not able to survive to the counter-attack, and if I try to blitz in a line my spearhead gets attacked on every side and I'm limited by the stacking penalty, so bringing enough fresh troops to beat two entrenched divisions in an urban area behind a river is already quite difficult.

you have problem with hungary? i wiped them out as every other nation in the region. as turkey i steam rolled them quite badly. i dont know what are you fighting against, but for me, it was quick process. truth is, i was able to finish off all minors in europe by end 36.

End 36? I didn't even have the neutrality to start an attack at this point, and I'm surprised to hear that Turkey's neutrality is lower than Spain's.
Maybe the absence of civil war in Turkey makes things easy, since you don't have to destroy half of your army. Have you puppeted each minor and use it to attack the next one, or have you just annexed them?

 

[Kovax]

He's having trouble against them because his Infantry Warfare doctrine is a couple of levels lower and his officer ratio isn't nearly as high (a pitiful 94% versus 139%), so his units disorganize. He can't rotate fresh units in and out of the fight because his Reinforcement chance is low, and he can't break off and re-attack because of extremely long attack delay....yet he's researching Coal to Oil conversion.

Granted, Nat Spain has a problem in the game due to getting stuck with mostly "default" (level 0) techs and doctrines after the Civil War, rather than Spain's starting techs. Several mods rectify this by giving the Nationalists the same techs as the original country. His selection for research seems a little questionable, compounding the problem. In my opinion, Infantry Warfare is THE most critical tech or doctrine in the game for a primarily infantry-based army, because your units will quickly break and retreat without it. Officer Ratio is an almost as critical factor, particularly if below 100%.

 

[_karl_]

Actually my officer ratio has been above 120% for a very long time, and it was still improving. And then it suddenly dropped down. Probably before of the additional units I've built. Is it possible that my previous wars killed some officers? I don't know the full mechanism.

I thought improving the weapons of my army was more important than improving the doctrines. I'll probably think a bit differently now...
Why do you think researching Coal to Oil conversion is a bad choice? Spain has a huge problem of resources, and isn't wealthy enough to buy everything abroad, so I thought I needed to invest in those techs if I don't want to bankrupt (which an IA Spain regularly does)

 

[Nuklearius]

#

 

[Kovax]

Actually my officer ratio has been above 120% for a very long time, and it was still improving. And then it suddenly dropped down. Probably before of the additional units I've built. Is it possible that my previous wars killed some officers? I don't know the full mechanism.

Building fresh divisions will spread out your existing officers over more units, both when you place them into the queue and when they reinforce upon completion. Building HQs is even harsher.

Coal to Oil conversion is only a trivial boost, which you could easily exceed with one modest trade deal. Sell some supplies and buy some crude oil if you feel that you must, and put the resource techs on the back burner for now. With 7K in fuel, you're not in any urgent rush to fix the problem. With obsolete infantry doctrines and a low officer ratio in the middle of a war, you've got much bigger issues to deal with.

 

[_karl_]

Building fresh divisions will spread out your existing officers over more units, both when you place them into the queue and when they reinforce upon completion. Building HQs is even harsher.

I do know about the dilution when building new units and HQ, but my interrogation was whether the raw number of officers (not just the percentage) can decrease when my army take some losses.

 

[Nuklearius]

I#

 

[_karl_]

Sell some supplies and buy some crude oil if you feel that you must, and put the resource techs on the back burner for now. With 7K in fuel, you're not in any urgent rush to fix the problem. With obsolete infantry doctrines and a low officer ratio in the middle of a war, you've got much bigger issues to deal with.

I think I already have more supplies on sale than supplies for my own army And nevertheless I can just barely keep my stock of resources and my money stable. Fuel is indeed not the most pressing issue, this is why I've researched it at the end (I've already researched the other resources, plus industry efficiency), but metal and rare materials can actually disappear relatively quickly.

 

[_karl_]

interrogation? Anyway your army looses officers in combat, but not to the degree it happened to you. And you have no manpower left? It all sounds like you just build too many divisions!

"Interrogation" might be a nasty gallicism I meant the question I was asking myself. And you answered it, thanks.
Regarding the divisions: indeed, when I realised I was so short on MP it was too late. Retrospectively, having built militias to guard my ports was a very stupid decision.

 

[_karl_]

I made it !

Transporting the few additional ART/AT/ENG brigades I had just produced, and making a good use of my airforce (bombing the main airport then using a lot of interdiction), I've been able to bring a healthy stack of units close to Budapest when they had only a single division in it. And even with nearly 10 times their numbers of soldiers, it was a bit of an epic battle^^

 

[yamato2cz]

I have attacked, many times. There is a lot of movement but typically they have two divisions. Two divisions with an intact and very high organisation, while my troops arrive completely exhausted. Sometimes I see only a HQ, but it seems to be only an illusion due to bad military intelligence. If I try to keep a large front I'm not able to survive to the counter-attack, and if I try to blitz in a line my spearhead gets attacked on every side and I'm limited by the stacking penalty, so bringing enough fresh troops to beat two entrenched divisions in an urban area behind a river is already quite difficult.

End 36? I didn't even have the neutrality to start an attack at this point, and I'm surprised to hear that Turkey's neutrality is lower than Spain's.
Maybe the absence of civil war in Turkey makes things easy, since you don't have to destroy half of your army. Have you puppeted each minor and use it to attack the next one, or have you just annexed them?

by using "raise threat" missions on some major and some first desirable country. as nat china, you can do the same. uniting all of china cores before the war, and had enough units on the border to steamroll any japanese oposition.
also, do you know how i steamrolled japan as china? building solely INF BRIGADES. nothing else, just that. and upgrading them acordingly. its 6 techs that directly influence their effectivenes. then you can add in some other doctrines if you have LS to spare. i rally dont know how anyone can have problems with minors, even if playing as minor.
and do you know how i steam rolled whole world as said turkey? by investing first few years (up to 38) to infantry. no arty, no mot, no arm. just inf. just try it.

 

[marxianTJ]

A lot like hoi2 - vanilla infantry is formidable - particularly because AI builds are really sub-optimal, and because extreme minors don't de-rail the game as effectively as they should (such as Albania conquering almost the whole of non-major Europe, Asia, and Africa without anybody caring).

For R Spain a heavily INF based army has its appeal, especially with specialist training - since you can't build many anyways for lack of manpower after the civil war is resolved. If it could be sustained with LS adding at least ART would be a good sink since the units take less manpower and add a lot of anti-infantry punch, but it's not essential. The hardest part of R. Spain is just winning the civil war (unless you game the system or cheat in some way - since you lose 1/2 of your forces to the rebellion).

 

[_karl_]

Winning the civil war was by far the easiest part for me. I lost half of my land army OK, but I kept all of my navy (so I have high mobility on my large coast and can fight each small front one-by-one, concentrating all my force including those from colonies) and all of my airforce (which is devastating on the organisation of that primitive infantry, and allows a lot of interdition strikes to slow down the ability of the AI to exploit a breach or connect its territories). The Spanish airforce is huge compared to the tiny armies. In the real world it was Franco who had an important help from the Italian and German airforces. In the real world Franco was able to use his position in Northern Africa. In the real world the SCW took 3 years, not one month and an half.
Actually I'm strongly disappointed by how bad the modelisation of the SCW is. If I want to replay as Spain, I'll definitely try to find a mod.