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SFJackBauer

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For example, just watched a D-Day documentary where the chief-of-staff to Rommel was trying to get the 4th Panzer division into the battle at Caan. Rommel was back in Germany, and had to get back and forth by car because of Allied air superiority. So, naturally, there was Attack Delay because the leader, in this case, Rommel wasn't on hand at HQ to get the ball rolling.

As with the French high command in 1940, Attack delay depends on leadership at HQ. Someone with lots of traits as Rommel or Patten should be able to get divisions rolling a lot quicker than, say, Maurice Gustave Gamelin.

What you are describing is actually "initiative". The French Army lacked initiative to react and change the rigid defense plans they have put into action. Completely different than the attack delay mechanic in HOI3.

The attack delay means that the soldiers cannot fight immediately after fighting, no matter how easy it was the last engagement. Its like they are government employees that after 30min of consecutive work need to take a 30min break...
 

Modestus

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Why not go back to the old method in HOI 2 of allowing an order to be given to units that targets the province beyond the front-line province. Land theory research would allow for deeper penetration so you can imagine that as you improve your Blitzkrieg theory you can order your units to attack deeper provinces without a delay.

Any change in this order during the advance such as changing the direction of the attack will then cause the attack delay as units would need time to reorganise. Even if the player simply stops the advance into a province that they can now see is heavily defended should cause a delay.

You could also ignore the length of a battle and have a fixed delay regardless of how intense any battle was, the delay should only represent the ability of its command to reorganise itself for new orders this could be modified by the actual commanders.
 

Jazumir

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Why not go back to the old method in HOI 2 of allowing an order to be given to units that targets the province beyond the front-line province. Land theory research would allow for deeper penetration so you can imagine that as you improve your Blitzkrieg theory you can order your units to attack deeper provinces without a delay.

Any change in this order during the advance such as changing the direction of the attack will then cause the attack delay as units would need time to reorganise. Even if the player simply stops the advance into a province that they can now see is heavily defended should cause a delay.

You could also ignore the length of a battle and have a fixed delay regardless of how intense any battle was, the delay should only represent the ability of its command to reorganise itself for new orders this could be modified by the actual commanders.

Wouldnt that come down to:
For reasons of gameplay, i wouldnt implement the delay caused by the chain of command [subject to the dcotrine-tech & officer ratio, but not ORG% of the unit] as a flat delay-on-orders, but rather as an amount of time, which needs to pass between two orders becoming effective. Example:

At 0:00 - having the game on pause - you give unit A (idle and ready to go) the order to go to province x. You currently have an ´operational delay´ of, say, 12 hours. While the game is still paused, you reconsider to move A to y. After that you hit unpause. A starts moving to y immediately. At 6:00 the enemy starts an offensive on z, which is in the opposite direction of y. But A cannot execute another order than ´move to y´ for another 6 hours. You can tell it to go to z, but it will keep going to y unitl 12:00 (even if that means, that it will arrive in y in the meantime). Only after the delay has worn off, it will execute new orders. Pre-planing is encouraged, if you have a long delay and short ways from province to province (the former > the later), as a move order with a final destination several provinces away would still be a single order.
, pretty much?

Only that i think that one single rule about this, like presented in my suggestion, is preferable. That rule would be: ´Once an (any) order starts getting executed, no new order will get executed (nor can the order be canceled) before the delay-time is over.´

I still think, that this would strike the optimal balance between realism and playability.

Think about it: If you are expecting to fight long, bloody battles on a defined battlefield -tenchwar- (like the french did, in reality), you wont need to lower this delay, really. If your delay is 3 days, and the least time of any attack, or highest urgency to move units back and forth behind the lines, is 4 days, any advance in the according tech will be completely useless. As it is an expensive tech, it may seem reasonable to forfeit it, under these expectations (which will probably prove wrong at one occassion or another, when you´ll have to react quickly - lack of this tech makes you prone to surprise and a maneuvering enemy).

OTOH, if you plan to go ´blitzkrieging´ against proper enemies, or will be fighting on the defensive at a too long front, a high level of the tech is indispensable. Whoever has the shortest delay on the field, is likely to achieve and maintain the operational initiative, the more, the higher the difference between the two adversaries in this tech is. If Germany has a significant lead in this tech over its enemies and a good officer ratio, then that´s how one Panzerdivision can be a lot more effective than a french tank division eqiped with roughly the same level of tanks and how one german army can hope to delay the advance of a whole soviet front for a while.
 
Last edited:

KLorberau

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Har har har....funny line at the end there about the Italians in the Western Desert....I almost pissed myself..

KLorberau
 

Mikematotski

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Why not do it simple, to do any type of offensive action you need at least a certain organisation say 75% (like paratrooper to board airoplanes)
Than it will solve the delay time itself.

Cheers
Captain Jack
 
Last edited:

unmerged(354797)

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I am on my first game, and after painstakingly planing a blitzkrieg I must say this is a deal breaker for me.

"hey we got this province, now lets take a 4 day break, then we can take another one"

this is such a deal breaker for me... not playing the game again till I can change it. And if not, going to return it.

Also very irritating is one of my provinces is being attacked, so I rush some tanks there to help, well the tanks dont fight, they just watch "in reserve" as their comrades get slaughtered... fine whatever, you know theres not enough "space" for the tanks, so im aggravated, but I think hey, at least once the other division retreats the tanks, who are at full org and strength will be able to fight.... wrong the tanks retreat as well, and why the @#$%?
 

Mikematotski

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Also very irritating is one of my provinces is being attacked, so I rush some tanks there to help, well the tanks dont fight, they just watch "in reserve" as their comrades get slaughtered... fine whatever, you know theres not enough "space" for the tanks, so im aggravated, but I think hey, at least once the other division retreats the tanks, who are at full org and strength will be able to fight.... wrong the tanks retreat as well, and why the @#$%?

This is a typical flaw in the game.... normally the bad hurt units in the front would be rotated back into the reserve and the tanks would move forward and fight on. As usual the game doesn't work as WAD.


Cheers
Captain Jack
 

oldsoldier

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This is a typical flaw in the game.... normally the bad hurt units in the front would be rotated back into the reserve and the tanks would move forward and fight on. As usual the game doesn't work as WAD.


Cheers
Captain Jack

I actually do not think this is a flaw at all. (it is a pain in the butt, but very realistic). You can research technologies that improve the re-inforce & counter attack chance (ie the chance that these units will engage).
It is actually incredibly difficult to achive a rearward passage of lines with divisional / corps sized units and usually ends in disaster, chaos and confusion, espeically if being done in contact.
One usuful tactic is not to throw in the reinforcing units, but wait for the enemy to occupy the province and then counter attack. As they are usually pretty beat up by this point it is fairly easy to retake the province.
The AI tries to do this all the time.
 

Bsharp

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Why not go back to the old method in HOI 2 of allowing an order to be given to units that targets the province beyond the front-line province. Land theory research would allow for deeper penetration so you can imagine that as you improve your Blitzkrieg theory you can order your units to attack deeper provinces without a delay.

Any change in this order during the advance such as changing the direction of the attack will then cause the attack delay as units would need time to reorganise. Even if the player simply stops the advance into a province that they can now see is heavily defended should cause a delay.

You could also ignore the length of a battle and have a fixed delay regardless of how intense any battle was, the delay should only represent the ability of its command to reorganise itself for new orders this could be modified by the actual commanders.

If I remember correctly, what you describe in the first two paragraphs was part of the original concept for HOI 3 but they had trouble getting the AI to make use of the capability (multi-province attack orders).
 

Alex_brunius

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This is a typical flaw in the game.... normally the bad hurt units in the front would be rotated back into the reserve and the tanks would move forward and fight on. As usual the game doesn't work as WAD.


Cheers
Captain Jack
No, it is your responsibility as a commander to retreat units manually and make room for fresh units as they arrive if you must hold the province. I've seen the AI do it several times, and I have also held off really tough fights in multiplayer manually retreating and sending rested troops back into battle manually as needed.

If you wait until they are auto retreated all infantry (assuming you use equal divisions) will retreat roughly at the same time giving no time for the tank division to maneuver and join the battle.
 

Bsharp

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Only that i think that one single rule about this, like presented in my suggestion, is preferable. That rule would be: ´Once an (any) order starts getting executed, no new order will get executed (nor can the order be canceled) before the delay-time is over.´

I still think, that this would strike the optimal balance between realism and playability.

I think this would be an improvement... But, would your order delay require forces to move one province at a time, even in the absence of opposition? Or, would you consider an order of 'move to Moscow' as a single order that would continue to be executed without delay across multiple provinces, for example when the unit starts in Warsaw?
 

Jazumir

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The later. You could order it to go from Paris to Wladiswostok (opposition or not - that would be irrelevant - it´s a matter of ORG when it comes to opposition), but couldnt cancel the move, until the delay wears off. By that time, even with strategic redeployment and bad research in the relevant tech, they shouldnt be far past Reims.
Canceling a strategic redeployment (after the delay had worn off), btw, should incur the delay, again...
Also, if you are on the move (with a delay going), and your province gets attacked, the move is canceled, but the delay is restarted. The remaining delay-time could then be used each hour to check for reinforcement-chance (many hours left -> little chance of the unit going from reserve to the front).
 
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Buggsy

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What would be nice is a gradual engagement.

Starting from first contact with the enemy, skirmishing, not so much org/strength loss, and the longer the battle lasts, the more intense it gets. This would be good for low attack type of units like militia/infantry. Higher speed units like tanks could engage quicker.

And it could also be based on org level, low org level units will be slower to engage fully.
 

Jazumir

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Okay, here are my suggestions for a rough tech-schedule for the ´command delay´ (i´ll adopt this name now for the concept of delays for all actively given orders, as described above):

Standard delay at 100% officer ratio - 96h (4 days)
After 1918-tech - 84h (3.5 days)
After 1936-tech - 72h (3 days)
After 1938-tech - 60h (2.5 days)
After 1940-tech - 48h (2 days)
After 1942-tech - 36h (1.5 days)
After 1944-tech - 24h (1 day) = max. level

140% officer ratio would cut this by 40% respectively, while 50% officer ratio would double it.
Likely constallation at ´fall gelb´:
Germany: 1940-tech (48h), 130% OFR -> 34h (rounded)
France: 1918-tech (84h) or 1936-tech (72h), ca. 100% OFR -> 72-84h

This brings me to another ´pro´ of this system: I, being a micro-er, often end up playing the game in ´turns´, checking the frontline every day or so (there is usually a meeting in the FHQ each morning, so to say). Now, if i knew all my troops could receive orders in 36h intervals, i´d make a morning meeting on day1, an evening meeting on day2, a morning meeting at day 4 and so on, playing in turns, the length of which would be determined by the command delay.

Before you think, that these are too long, please remember, that a lot of this time, the units will be moving to their destination anyways, and as long as you are not ´forced´ to cancel a move (which you cant during the delay), the effective delay is [delay - (minus) time it takes to execute the order]. For example, if you ordered an inf-corps from one province to the next, and it takes them 24h to arrive, only 12h of a 36h-delay will actually bother you. To avoid these 12 hours, give the corps the order to move two provinces in: It will continue to move to the second immediately after arriving in the first, since it is the same order. You will be taking the risk of a re-newed delay -and with it, reduced reinforcement-chances- when being attacked in the province(s) it moves through, though*. That´s why you may want to cover the flanks of your spearheads offensively (just like IRL). After the enemy attack has been beaten off, moving units will resume** their ordered movement (but their delay-timer got re-started, when the enemy attack began).

Please note, that this would be in addition to ORG-requirements (needed for moving into enemy territory, attacking etc.), and both - the command-delay and ORG-requirements - taken together are meant to replace the attack delay.

*EDIT: This is going to get a bit off-topic: When a province is being attacked, and all the defender´s units are currently moving away from the province, only one (randomly chosen, but preference put on the fastest unit) of these should slip into the front-line and all the others being put to the reserve, subject to reinforcement chance. If at least one of the defender´s units is stationary, that unit will be put in the front-line, and all moving ones in the reserve.

**EDIT2: The alternative would be, to have them restart - instead of resume - the ordered movement and not renew the delay. That would open the door for gamey mini-spoiling attacks though, forcing your enemy to restart a movement over and over again, just before he arrives. With just the delay restarted but movement continued where it left off when the province got attacked, spoiling atttacks can still be effective, without burying the concept of ´blitzkrieg´ entirely. If you do such an attack, you can at least (and at most - if you start it just before they would arrive) delay the enemy units by his combat-delay-time. To prevent such attacks, you must attack on your own. IRL, this (securing the flanks of the broken through spearhead offensively) was an essential part of the ´sickle-cut´, too!

----

It is an unfortunate, but probably needed, limitation of the engine, that you cannot have decision-pop-ups when a battle starts. Then you could be asked wether moving troops should partake in the defence of a province at all, when the battle starts, for example. Maybe, we could have another STRG-movement option (´charge´, ´pursue´ or whatnot), to decide that (only for battles, where stationary are present - if none are, the moving ones must defend the province regardless, as decribed in the first ´edit´.

So ´pursue´ instead of ´move´ would make the moving units not go into the reserve when their province is attacked and a stationary is present (and fighting, e.g. not retreating), but rather have them move on without delay. The very same order could also be interpretated in some useful fashion when meeting the enemy (like, say, increased combat speed but less toughness).
 
Last edited:

Bsharp

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I also am a micro-manager who plays the game in 'turns', so the first part of what you wrote sounds very good to me.

As I wrote in an earlier post, I believe the multi-province move was part of the HOI3 initial concept, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was taken out because the AI couldn't handle it. Perhaps now, with more time, the programmers can have another go at it since that would much improve the game.

The next part sounds to me like it would cause some of the same problems we have today. For example, it seems you would give moving units renewed orders delay when the province they're moving through gets attacked. Why? If one soldier attacks your panzer column, why should they even notice, let alone get orders delay?

Instead, moving units that are attacked should get a combat penalty similar to the 'multiple combat penalty'. Then, it's the player's choice to either cancel movement and fight at full strength, or continue to move and fight at the same time, at a penalty. That would allow you to blow right through those 0-frontage HQ units that currently cause so many problems.

Similarly, units moving through a province that's being attacked should completely ignore the combat, so long as there are other units on the line defending. If the player wants them to stop and fight, he can change their orders. There's no need to create new categories of movement (ie pursue).
 

cfp

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For example, just watched a D-Day documentary where the chief-of-staff to Rommel was trying to get the 4th Panzer division into the battle at Caan. Rommel was back in Germany, and had to get back and forth by car because of Allied air superiority. So, naturally, there was Attack Delay because the leader, in this case, Rommel wasn't on hand at HQ to get the ball rolling.

----

What say yea?

Yea says you *must* be mistaken - the 4th Panzer Division wasn't anywhere -near- France in June/July 1944.

Only that i think that one single rule about this, like presented in my suggestion, is preferable. That rule would be: ´Once an (any) order starts getting executed, no new order will get executed (nor can the order be canceled) before the delay-time is over.

That would be a *ridiculous* rule; orders were canceled all the time in WW2.
 

MAC

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I would really love to see a comment of a developer about what changes would be possible. It is usually a different ballgame to invent a solution and to implement it.
About the 2 types of attack: I guess if org would recover slower in the last 1/3rd we would not need it - if you want to attack at full org you need to wait quite some time.

I was not able to find much influencing org in enemy territory, though - is there anything ?
Would it be possible to mod a system with reduced delay and org loss in enemy territory ?

@playerguy - you can still change the values in the defines.lua some suggested earlier.
 

oldsoldier

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21st Panzer Divison at Caen, engaged on 6th June
12th SS Panzer Division, held back until 1630hrs on 6th June
4th Panzer Divsion, Kowel, Poland (Army Group Centre)
 

Jazumir

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Okay fine guys, so then have it, that you have the 2-front-penalty (good idea, actually - didnt think of it) and move on without getting the delay and that you can cancel orders (but new ones wont get executed before the delay expires).