attachable motorization

[unmerged(57297)]

I would prefer attachable motorization. Infantry, Mot.Infantrie and even Mech.Infantry fight in the same way, unmounted. They are not different soldiers , like Marines or mountain Infantry. The only diffrence is that they are equipped diffrent.

So when so start an 36, in most cases you just have the option to built normal infantry. When you can research Mot.Infantry you have to built up totally new unexperienced units, instead of just giving your best units a better transportantionsystem.

In some cases I also had to disband some of the old experienced infantry, in order to get a more mobilized army.

Attachable motorization would lead to some good advancements.

1. You don't lose experienced soldiers and you can use them with the best equipment.

2. If you lack of oil you can detach the motorization and use your infantry as a normal one.

3. Motorization could be goods to trade with smaller countries or countries which usually don`t have the ability to produce great amount of motorization like China. Also you could simulate the help the allieds gave the SU, because a lot of the trucks the sowjets used were produced by the US.

 

[unmerged(78752)]

Pernhart
This is an excellent idea. I too find it so frustrating that one cannot 'upgrade' one's infantry divisions to motorised or mechanised status. I don't know whether this is best done with an attachment or with an upgrade, but either way it should be possible.
It is illogical to raise brand new divisions rather than mechanise the existing ones.

 

[unmerged(57297)]

Oh and I forgot.

4. It could be combined very good with the new economical system of Otacu here . Because you don't have to chose if Mot or Mech would be small or heavy arms.

 

[unmerged(78917)]

This is a great idea. How would you treat it, like a brigade attachment? If so how would you attach other brigades?

 

[unmerged(57297)]

This is a great idea. How would you treat it, like a brigade attachment? If so how would you attach other brigades?

Yes like a brigade, but it shouldn't be instead of a brigade. It should be more like a second type of attachments.

 

[unmerged(78917)]

I'm all for this one.

 

[Balesir]

Agreed, this is a neat idea. If you also treat the basic equipment of the unit the same way (weaponry and other basic equipment) you have a much improved system for unit upgrades to new technology (e.g. Inf-39 to Inf-41) as well. Also supports the 'arms sales' deals in diplomacy and maybe also feeds into the amphibious warfare issues raised elsewhere - when retreating onto TPs maybe there are some of these attachments that cannot go with (vide Dunkirk)...

 

[unmerged(78752)]

Balesir,

Really liked your suggestion of 'heavy equipment' being left behind in the wake of an evacuation.
I would take this a stage further and say that any brigade should be considered lost during such an evacuation and also that armoured units are incapable of being lifted off the beaches in this fashion.

 

[Smut Peddler]

Awesome idea guys.
Though i think in many cases, armies retire in good order WITH their equipment, I think there are certain cases (the beach retreat in particular), and perhaps when attacked from 3 or more directions (and the panic that would instill) where up to 15-35% of a division's STRENGTH should be lost after losing a battle.

 

[Balesir]

I think the STR loss can tend to happen anyway, as units with zero ORG take STR losses if their side is still fighting. The only modification might be that only if retreaters are significantly faster than all their pursuers should combat cease just because one side is retreating. This should solve the 'problem' with retreating ships, too - basically have combat continue until both sides are in different provinces and neither is moving into the province the other is in.

 

[unmerged(64364)]

I like this idea but I do have some reservations.

Motorised and Mechanised Divisions are NOT just infantry divisions with trucks or armoured transports attached; they are organised & equipped differently and whilst the process of fighting is similar it is not the same since they have an enhanced level of mobility & different mix of weapons which they make full use of.

I like the idea, certainly in relation to addinng trucks but that would simply bump up the speed of the Infantry division to 10mph. The other benefits enjoyed by these units (particulalry Mech) are because of enhanced Recce battalions with armoured vehicles and armoured Artillery, more automatic weapons, vehicle mounted weapons and so on. Adding trucks doesn't give you all these things.

So you really have two issues here. adding trucks to simply speed up infantry divisions (as if from a transport pool and not organic to the unit) and converting an infantry unit into a mot or mech unit with it's own organic transport, new kit etc. and that would involve a dillution in skills (however marginal) and IC investment in new equipment.

This is still a good idea though, certainly virtually all the mot/mech units in German service were converted rather than assembled as such.

I would add that there is no reason the Elite divisions could not be supplied with trucks from the transport pool either; although they have their specialist roles they don't fight in an essentially different manner and many were used as plain Infantry anyway.

 

[unmerged(57297)]

I like this idea but I do have some reservations.

Motorised and Mechanised Divisions are NOT just infantry divisions with trucks or armoured transports attached; they are organised & equipped differently and whilst the process of fighting is similar it is not the same since they have an enhanced level of mobility & different mix of weapons which they make full use of.

I like the idea, certainly in relation to addinng trucks but that would simply bump up the speed of the Infantry division to 10mph. The other benefits enjoyed by these units (particulalry Mech) are because of enhanced Recce battalions with armoured vehicles and armoured Artillery, more automatic weapons, vehicle mounted weapons and so on. Adding trucks doesn't give you all these things.

So you really have two issues here. adding trucks to simply speed up infantry divisions (as if from a transport pool and not organic to the unit) and converting an infantry unit into a mot or mech unit with it's own organic transport, new kit etc. and that would involve a dillution in skills (however marginal) and IC investment in new equipment.

This is still a good idea though, certainly virtually all the mot/mech units in German service were converted rather than assembled as such.

I would add that there is no reason the Elite divisions could not be supplied with trucks from the transport pool either; although they have their specialist roles they don't fight in an essentially different manner and many were used as plain Infantry anyway.

It is the most easy system to make non motorized units motorized.

Certenly german mech infantries were better equipped, but only because there were not enough good equipment to supply the whole army with it.

If you prefer a more complex and realistic system, take a look at my thread "NEW WEAPON SYSTEM"

 

[unmerged(64364)]

Actually there IS an alternative.

You could simply have a transport pool modelled in an abstract manner (Like transports & escorts & assembled in a similar manner) for every 'point' (company) of trucks you can move 1 MP of foot sloggers as if it were motorised. The trucks can be allocated for whatever duration you wish and when removed there is a short delay before they move from the commited column to the available column again.

 

[von Bixler]

I agree with the OP. In all the major nation's armies, regular infantry divisions were routinely upgraded to motorized or mechanized. You can even see this in the way the scenarios are set up, in the '36 scenario for example, the US 1st Infantry (the Big Red One ) is just vanilla infantry, while in the '44 scenario it is motorized, and by the Doomsday scenario mechanized. I think the OP's suggestion makes sense and is an easy way to implement this.

 

[shadow737]

The problem is that many nations without a large oil supply of their own will start to run out of oil quickly if all the Infantry Divisions are upgradeable to Motorized or Mechanized Divisions. Also historically speaking this was not the case. Many German Infantry divisions were "foot" divisions like their fathers and grandfathers before them.

But I can also see an advantage to a couple of new brigades that historically and gameplay wise might make sense.

Here they are:
Transportation Brigade: adds speed (2mph faster or more) for small oil cost to a infantry or militia division (only attachable to those two units), but does not have other combat effects, basically a truck transport brigade that gets people were they are going faster, but the trucks are unarmored and unarmed affairs so no other bonuses.
Motorized Brigade: an attached brigade of motorized infantry
Mechanized Brigade: an attached brigade of mechanized infantry
Dive Bomber Attachment: attached squadron of dive bombers to allow for small close support actions without the massive wings being involved. also would allow for the province by province attacks that many players are concerned about that with the current regional air missions do not allow for.
Tactical Bomber Attachment: same as above, but with tac. bombers attached
Recon Brigade: fights like a mixed engineer/light armor brigade with some positive and negative bonuses of both but major function is to improve recon on nearby enemy divisions so that the player or AI can see the enemy troops better
Rifle Brigade: standard light rifle infantry brigade, basically a little added hit to infantry, militia, or garrison divisions, makes the standard foot divisions a little stronger than the other side, this was done historically and could be the basis for "Guard Infantry divisions"
Sonar Naval brigade an attachment for both subs and surface ships allowing for better naval spotting
Signals Brigade: rather than creating a large Headquarters division, for a large price *(1/5 cost of HQ division) create a smaller signals/communication brigade able to manage the affairs of the immediate units in the area doubling the command capacity of the general in charge of that corps the signals group is part of, but no additional aid to other commanders or other provinces, historically most HQs were for one unit anyway, with a couple of front wide Headquarters bases well behind the lines.
Marine Brigade: an attached brigade of Marines, to limit the disadvantages of non-Marine units in amphib or river crossing operations
Civil Engineer Brigade: attached brigade of engineers trained to repair the damage of war quickly allowing for fatser repair of IC, resources, infrastructure damage, fortresses, or province improvements like radar, AA, runways, etc, attachable to garrison, militia, infantry, motorized, mechanized, or armored divisions

 

[unmerged(40779)]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5505395#post5505395

Some more discussion about the same subject...

 

[unmerged(84286)]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7514821#post7514821
Made post in truck thread would fit better here.

Basically make infantry able to function as an extra brigade for the mot and mech units instead.

 

[unmerged(80974)]

Attachable upgrades to infantry divisions

I also think that it is more realistic to upgrade existing infantry/cavalry divisons to motorized/mechanized divisions with attachable "brigades", rather like the ship upgrades already available in Armageddon. As in naval units the number of brigades attachable to each division would increase acording to the type, somewhat like this:

1- Militia/Garrison Divisions - 1 upgrade/brigade possible;
2- Infantry/Cavalry Divisions - 2 upgrades/brigades possible;
3- Armoured Division - 3 upgrades/brigades possible;

The motorized and mechanized divisions would not be built from scratch as it actually does, but could become uppgrades/brigades to existing infantry divisions. Of course, it would be possible to build a infantry division already with motorized/mechanized brigades.

As to transport upgrades/brigades this could be the following:

1- Motorized Group - more speed, extra supply needs, more soft attack/defence;
2- Mechanized Group - more speed, extra supply needs, more soft attack/defence;
3- Airborne Group - strictly for paratroops, extra supply needs, more soft attack/defence (glider artillery), more hard attack/defence (glider jeeps/armoured car);
4 - Helicopter Group - more speed, extra supply need, more hard attack/defence (available after Air Cav technology);

Anyway, perhaps there could be some ideas for HOI3.

Best Compliments.