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Caeric

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Comparing nuclear weapons with the Tsar Bomba is comparing tanks during WW2 and now with the Maus. Yes, all tanks are tiny compared to it, but it can't be used in any practical way. The atomic bombs of 1945 is smaller than many tactical nuclear weapons, but at the time it was a major shock and really prompted the Emperor to intervene
Interestingly a part of the military attempted a coup to prevent him from annoucing the surrender, which of course failed. But yes, the Tsar is quite impractical, especially when the scienctists who built it gave the modified aircraft that was to deliver the damn thing a 50/50 chance of survival...
 
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Deadreckoning

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I am not sure that being targeted by a nuclear bomb should have a greater negative effect on war support or stability. Like in the UK after the London blitz, I don’t think Japanese morale declined significantly after the firebombing of its cities or after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Rather, the Japanese player (the emperor) decided the game was over.
 
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bERt0r

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Comparing nuclear weapons with the Tsar Bomba is comparing tanks during WW2 and now with the Maus. Yes, all tanks are tiny compared to it, but it can't be used in any practical way. The atomic bombs of 1945 is smaller than many tactical nuclear weapons, but at the time it was a major shock and really prompted the Emperor to intervene.
That was the point. OP thinks nukes should be super powerful. They were not in WW2. They became what they are today due to their development in the 50s during the cold war.
 
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AskingForIt138

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That was the point. OP thinks nukes should be super powerful. They were not in WW2. They became what they are today due to their development in the 50s during the cold war.

I never said that I wanted them to become super powerful? I said they needed to meaningfully affect a nation's decision to surrender. I really think you're underestimating the affect the bomb had on the Japanese Emperor's decision to surrender.

And besides in game there should only be handful of bombs ever used unless you're playing into the 1950s. The idea of spamming bombs in 1945 is ridiculous.
 
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AskingForIt138

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I am not sure that being targeted by a nuclear bomb should have a greater negative effect on war support or stability. Like in the UK after the London blitz, I don’t think Japanese morale declined significantly after the firebombing of its cities or after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Rather, the Japanese player (the emperor) decided the game was over.

I think a special Japanese mechanic should be introduced: the Emperor's support for the war. I think it would be cool to simulate that.

Otherwise I'd argue for the sake of sandbox as a whole to introduce a set of requirements for a decision taken by the AI to unconditionally surrender once an atomic bomb is dropped. (Enemy holds core territory, low war support, low strength ratio compared to enemy, etc.)
 

dratheos

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Fold it into the intelligence bureau system? "Atomic Program" counts as an expansion to the bureau, only the faction spymaster can build it, costs a lot of civ factories for a long time (eg, 50 civ factories for several years), spies can run operations that reduce the time (eg, help atomic scientist defect, acquire uranium or heavy water, steal atomic research), so larger factions that have more spies to do that.

Realistically, nobody is going to bother developing a brand new system just for researching nukes, but the above system is simple enough it could be added pretty easily.
 
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bERt0r

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I never said that I wanted them to become super powerful? I said they needed to meaningfully affect a nation's decision to surrender. I really think you're underestimating the affect the bomb had on the Japanese Emperor's decision to surrender.

And besides in game there should only be handful of bombs ever used unless you're playing into the 1950s. The idea of spamming bombs in 1945 is ridiculous.
I think you're overestimating the effect it had. Japan was at it's last legs. It lost Iow Jima so it was basically GG. :D Seriously, the fire bombings with conventional strategic bombs did more damage than the nukes. Maybe they gave the Japanese a good excuse to end the war. But that's reflected by the stability hit nukes give.
 

LordWahu

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Realistically, nobody is going to bother developing a brand new system just for researching nukes, but the above system is simple enough it could be added pretty easily.
A Wunderwaffen DLC has been on the roadmap for a very long time, and the idea was renewed in the post NSB roadmap update

Given nukes are pretty much the prime example of the concept, they will undoubtedly getting a full rework in a few DLCS
 
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I think you're overestimating the effect it had. Japan was at it's last legs. It lost Iow Jima so it was basically GG. :D Seriously, the fire bombings with conventional strategic bombs did more damage than the nukes. Maybe they gave the Japanese a good excuse to end the war. But that's reflected by the stability hit nukes give.
Until the atomics dropped, there were constant indications that they were ready to fight until the end. Even after the first one was dropped they declined to surrender

What atomics did was represent something that couldn't be fought. A single bomber had the capability to destroy any fortification, any unit, any city. Miss one and an entire defensive position would cease to be

It was something that was simply unprepared for. That they had no way of knowing they needed to prepare for. Unlike conventional bombing which had a measured effect on military capability, it represented something unknown. The sheer power would make defensive operations practically impossible until new tactics could be developed. And they were well aware they didn't have that kind of time. This new weapon made it so they couldn't fight to the last even if they wanted to.



That all being said, it's easy to overestimate power when two entire cities practically ceased to be within a week. And the whole point of dropping two was to say they could do it as much as they wanted (something which wasn't quite true but why tell them that)
 
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bERt0r

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You do know that there's actually a guy that survived both the Hiroshima and the Nagasaki bomb? https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/story-one-man-who-survived-two-nuclear-bomb-attacks-179254

The bombs were a clear demonstration of technological superiority. But the nuclear bombs destroyed less than the normal strategic bombing raids like the one in tokyo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

Sure, for the nukes you only need one plane while they needed 300 for a normal bomb raid. But the net difference ain't all that big. Sure, shock and awe. That's the stability. hit. I don't know what exactly you want to happen instead, -10% war support?
 

LordWahu

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You do know that there's actually a guy that survived both the Hiroshima and the Nagasaki bomb? https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/story-one-man-who-survived-two-nuclear-bomb-attacks-179254

The bombs were a clear demonstration of technological superiority. But the nuclear bombs destroyed less than the normal strategic bombing raids like the one in tokyo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

Sure, for the nukes you only need one plane while they needed 300 for a normal bomb raid. But the net difference ain't all that big. Sure, shock and awe. That's the stability. hit. I don't know what exactly you want to happen instead, -10% war support?
As I've said before: War support to do something

A 100% hit to war support has practically no change to anything. 10% is completely worthless
 
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You do know that there's actually a guy that survived both the Hiroshima and the Nagasaki bomb? https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/story-one-man-who-survived-two-nuclear-bomb-attacks-179254

The bombs were a clear demonstration of technological superiority. But the nuclear bombs destroyed less than the normal strategic bombing raids like the one in tokyo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

Sure, for the nukes you only need one plane while they needed 300 for a normal bomb raid. But the net difference ain't all that big. Sure, shock and awe. That's the stability. hit. I don't know what exactly you want to happen instead, -10% war support?

What I want see instead is that dropping one or two A-bombs on a nation unlocks a decision to surrender for the AI if other conditions are met: low war support/stability, enemy on core territory, low strength in the field compared to the enemy that dropped the bomb, etc. The bomb's current effects on the tiles dropped are fine, but I would maybe like to see events if dropped on a capital of a leader dying and changing. Like if the bomb was dropped on Tokyo, Berlin, etc.
 

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What I want see instead is that dropping one or two A-bombs on a nation unlocks a decision to surrender for the AI if other conditions are met: low war support/stability, enemy on core territory, low strength in the field compared to the enemy that dropped the bomb, etc. The bomb's current effects on the tiles dropped are fine, but I would maybe like to see events if dropped on a capital of a leader dying and changing. Like if the bomb was dropped on Tokyo, Berlin, etc.
But you have that already. Bombing and nuking lowers stability which lowers the capitulation threshold.
 

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But you have that already. Bombing and nuking lowers stability which lowers the capitulation threshold.
But that won't cause a nation to capitulate. Even though the devs added a situation specific surrender decision to Japan if A-bombs are dropped with the other requirements, I would like that expanded to other nations. IRL the atomic bomb was an alternative to a huge naval invasion and I don't see why that can't be simulated in the game.

I don't see the Germans lasting long if Berlin, Hamburg, and Munich had A-bombs dropped on them. Again, under the system outlined, this would only happen to one or two nations because there would be no ability to spam them because they would be too costly to produce.
 

bitmode

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It remains to be seen what they'll actually do in a Wunderwaffen DLC. But the proposed increased cost to research and produce nukes, perhaps even on a faction scale, and their increased impact to me sounds like a science victory in Civilization.
I.e. once nukes get used or multiple sides have them, the game's era and thus the game naturally ends. So in my opinion the actual combat effect of nukes could be somewhat overstated because using them would be more like a post-credits scene of sorts.
 
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But that won't cause a nation to capitulate. Even though the devs added a situation specific surrender decision to Japan if A-bombs are dropped with the other requirements, I would like that expanded to other nations. IRL the atomic bomb was an alternative to a huge naval invasion and I don't see why that can't be simulated in the game.

I don't see the Germans lasting long if Berlin, Hamburg, and Munich had A-bombs dropped on them. Again, under the system outlined, this would only happen to one or two nations because there would be no ability to spam them because they would be too costly to produce.

Berlin, Hamburg and Munich and most other German cities were bombed to the ground and Hitler shot himself instead of capitulating. And the Japanese would probably have done the same if the Germans were still fighting back then. Why do you want the game to end by dropping nukes? You know you can just nuke a port and then invade, there's no radiation and the garrison will be toast after the nuke.
 

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It remains to be seen what they'll actually do in a Wunderwaffen DLC. But the proposed increased cost to research and produce nukes, perhaps even on a faction scale, and their increased impact to me sounds like a science victory in Civilization.
I.e. once nukes get used or multiple sides have them, the game's era and thus the game naturally ends. So in my opinion the actual combat effect of nukes could be somewhat overstated because using them would be more like a post-credits scene of sorts.

I agree with the second part of your statement but not the first one. The invention of the atomic bomb should be a game over of sorts, at least in a historical game. Whatever nation developed the atomic bomb and means for transporting it "won" the arms race for the era for all intents and purposes.

I don't see how a simulation of an atomic program like the Manhattan Project is reminiscent of a Civ Science Victory. It would be an incredibly expensive program and for game balance and game play reasons there should be a game winning pay off to it.
 
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Berlin, Hamburg and Munich and most other German cities were bombed to the ground and Hitler shot himself instead of capitulating. And the Japanese would probably have done the same if the Germans were still fighting back then. Why do you want the game to end by dropping nukes? You know you can just nuke a port and then invade, there's no radiation and the garrison will be toast after the nuke.

I told you why and you seem to ignore the other huge part of my post (like the first 2/3s). I am arguing for the atomic bomb to have a war winning effect because it should be incredibly costly to produce (like 50-100 civs for years) limited to nations with the right scientists, limited to the nations with access to uranium, and limited to the nations that can develop a system of delivery.

In truth I'm getting a little wary of replying because I am only arguing for these new atomic bombs affects under a system similar to the one I outlined and you don't seem to acknowledge that.

While I disagree with you on the IRL effects on the atomic bomb, lets say I did agree with you. For gameplay balance reasons, an incredibly expensive years long program should have a satisfying payoff for the player. This is what I want in the game.

I played a game as the US recently and again, the three techs and building nuclear reactors to spam nukes felt so unfun and unbalanced. I don't see why you're arguing so hard for the current system.
 
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I'm going to pitch into this as I think most of the discussion is missing the point because we are ignoring the true nature of the Manhattan project, the actual practicality of others to create atomic bombs and what would be realistic affects of atomic bombs.

First of all, the really spectacular aspect of the Manhattan project once it started (and it was a bit late getting started) was the overwhelming expenditure on researching everything at once. If you look at it in some detail there are a whole range of potential paths to an atomic bomb all being researched at the same time with two paths leading to actual bombs. My point here being that developing an atomic bomb was in reality quite a lot easier than the Manhattan project, it's just that a sensible approach would have taken a lot longer. If anything what the game needs is some sort of simulation of the massive resource investment that was required to do everything at once. This is something that could be done by building in options relating to doing things in series rather than in parallel and adding idustrial cost to development as well as production. In the gamne industrial investment is only required for production.

Next point is that the in game effects of atomic bombs are somewhat greater than they should be. In reality the only thing that atomic bombs are really good at is destroying localised concentrations of resources whether they are civil or military. This makes them great for destroying single cities but against ,military targets you are quite limited. The effects you might expect were quite heavily researched post war with the conclusion that you can only significantly affect a single division of land forces and that fleets, like a carrier task force, are surprisingly survivable against this size of tactical warhead (which is what these first bombs were).

On the question of access to resources I would simply suggest there is minimal simulation of this (ie it's all in decisions and focus trees) because all of the major alliances in WW2 had adequate access to the necessary resources and hence simulating it doesn't actually achieve a great deal.

I would also agree with the point made earlier in the thread that the main morale affect on Japan was to persuade the emporrer that Japan should surrender. Any realistic morale impact of atomic bombs is going to be focused on the unknown threat of dropping many more. It is only with the advent of fusion weapons that nuclear attack become something that could win a war completely on its own.

One thing that isn't considered is the potential, with an atomic bomb, of aiming for extreme hard targets. The allies knew roughly where the fuhrer bunker was and roughly the location of other place where Hitler might be. They knew where the German high command was located. One of the effects never discussed for atomic weapons is the ability to take out invulnerable targets. This is something that could have ended the war in Europe 9-months earlier if A-bombs had been available a year earlier.

As it is we are having a fairly long-winded discussion about a fringe issue for HOI4 for the reason others have mentioned that they only appear at the end of the game. If, as often happens when I play, the war moves on into a second phase with the cold war immediately turning hot then a more realistic simulation makes sense but the main change needed is do something about the excessive effects. The main use I have for A-bombs is the destruction of enemy air power by attacking enemy airbases. This usually leads to my first wave of about 10 bombs destroying 10,000+ enemy aircraft.
 
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