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Jorlem

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The Way of Life DLC's biggest feature are the Life Focuses. Conclave built upon that for its revamped education system. However, I believe that this mechanic is fundamentally flawed, and does not fit with the CK2 as it was prior to these expansions.

The Focuses of WoL, and Conclave's education system both utilize the same gameplay mechanic, a panel that opens up that lets you effectively alter aspects of your character instantly. This is a mechanic that draws heavily from EU4's design philosophy. I'm not referring to things like the borrowing of shattered retreat, or AE/threat, but rather the underlying idea of how the player is meant to interact with the game. EU4's menus are more like control panels, where you can push buttons to effect some aspect of your country. Push one, and stability goes up. Push another, and revolt risk goes down. Push a third, and your tax income increases, and so on. This is a deliberate design choice, which I recall was explained thoroughly around the time of EU4's release, how every click of the mouse was meant to feel significant to the player. And for EU4, this works. The game is designed around it, and it fits together.

This is not the case for CK2. The vast majority of CK2's mechanics are built around the idea of being more hands off, so to speak, guiding your realm as its liege. To get things done, you need to interact with your vassals and other characters. You need to pay attention to their income, making sure they are not taxed too harshly, so they can build up their own demenses. You need to manage their opinions, to ensure you have enough levies to win wars, and to keep down factions, and in Conclave, to get your council to pass your laws. If you want to kill someone, you need to sway others to assist you. And it is notable with regards to that last one that there used to be a "bacon button" for that, the Assassinate button. An EU4 style interaction, you press the button, and are instantly granted an attempt on someone's life, without needing to interact with any other part of the game, beyond your cash reserves. And for that reason, the Assassinate "bacon button" was removed from vanilla CK2, in favor of an improved plotting system (which never really materialized, but that's another topic.)

Then the WoL Focuses were added. A set of ten "bacon buttons", granting a choice of bonuses an options for your character, all at the push of a button. Push one button, and suddenly your Martial stat increased, and you will live longer. Push another, and you can boost your Diplomacy stat, and up the odds that your character will have children. Or another, and boost your Intrigue, your chance at children, and gain access to the ability to attempt to seduce almost anyone you might want to. Before, if your character was poorly skilled in a certain area, you could decide to try to improve that skill, and there would be the occasional event depicting your character gradually improving themself. Now? Just press the right button, and so long as you don't press another, you'll instantly gain a significant boost. Before, if you wanted to invite your courtiers or vassals on a hunt, it merely had to be the proper time of year, and you needed the funds. Now, you also need to have pressed the proper button first, the same with pilgrimages.

A similar issue exists with Conclave's education system. With the old education system, you had to consider who you wanted to place the child with, yourself, a vassal to ensure loyalty, or perhaps a better educated courtier. Also playing into this was considering what types of education each character had, as that mattered for how the child would be educated. Now, you merely push the button for the education type you want, and send them off to the vassal for the opinion boost when they reach stage two. This is a somewhat different kind of bacon button, as it doesn't provide the instant gratification that the others do, but it does absolutely guarantee that you'll get the education type you want, and if you play the trait minigame, you'll likely get a decent quality as well. No need to interact with or consider any of the other characters that make up the rest of the game, just push the right button and you'll get what you want.


To put it simply, CK2 is a game where the vast majority of the game is intermeshed to some degree or another, where you don't often have precise control over all that happens, so you need to plan and plot your actions to try to get the result you want. And the Focus and new education systems sit off to the side, unaffected by anything, offering potent bonuses and increased control over results, all for the push of a button. In short, I feel that these systems just do not fit with the rest of CK2, and should not have been added, for the same reason the Assassinate button was removed.
 
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Marvoch

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I completely agree with you, and really hope that devs will read this topic and finally take into account the vast differences among CK2 and EU4 for future reference. That said, I think that a revamp of the education and foci systems is impossible, since they were introduced with DLCs.
 
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Jorlem

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I completely agree with you, and really hope that devs will read this topic and finally take into account the vast differences among CK2 and EU4 for future reference. That said, I think that a revamp of the education and foci systems is impossible, since they were introduced with DLCs.
The majority of content isn't the focus systems, just gated behind it. I think they could strip out the WoL focii, and tie the events behind them to different character traits, like normal events. Seduction and carousing could be made available for all, but would have a much higher failure rating if the characters don't have the linked traits.

A similar thing could be done with the education system, stripping out the focii, and creating a hybrid system, where the character you assign to educate them matters, but the childhood traits are used instead or in addition to the old events.
 
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Derdiedas

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Eh, while I agree with you, CK II needed some sort of Focus. When my holdings in the low countries are secure, my half brother that become king of Scotland is happy with me, with no immediate threat, I should really be able to enjoy life, be it through hunting, drinking, chasing everything with a skirt - or maybe trying to discover how this "economy" works. That was hard to do in vanilla, but I agree that Foci took it to the other extreme and should just greatly increase the chance of tied events happening and be less restrictive on your action. (For example, pilgrimage should be available not only to people with the theology focus, but also zealots, maybe non-cynical ill persions...etc.) But yeah, the instant bonuses should be turned down.

And to be honest - the changes in the education system are in the end not that dramatic. Before Conclave, you would just select someone with the proper education and traits and to turn your child into perfect future ruler. It was in the end not that different.
 
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Jorlem

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Eh, while I agree with you, CK II needed some sort of Focus. When my holdings in the low countries are secure, my half brother that become king of Scotland is happy with me, with no immediate threat, I should really be able to enjoy life, be it through hunting, drinking, chasing everything with a skirt - or maybe trying to discover how this "economy" works. That was hard to do in vanilla, but I agree that Foci took it to the other extreme and should just greatly increase the chance of tied events happening and be less restrictive on your action. (For example, pilgrimage should be available not only to people with the theology focus, but also zealots, maybe non-cynical ill persions...etc.) But yeah, the instant bonuses should be turned down.

And to be honest - the changes in the education system are in the end not that dramatic. Before Conclave, you would just select someone with the proper education and traits and to turn your child into perfect future ruler. It was in the end not that different.
That first would work too, in my opinion. Strip out the instant bonuses, and the gating of actions, and just using the focii to trigger event chains, I think that would be fine, as it would remove the portions of the buttons that make them feel out of place.

As for the education thing, my main objections to that were that you don't need to interact with anyone, and you will always get the type of education trait you want. Get rid of those, but leave in the childhood trait system so you can't easily make perfect heirs, and I'd be very happy with the education system. That this could be done without needing the use of the focii buttons is just a bonus, in my opinion.
 

Narvait

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Emm, it is not like that with new edu.
Your ward impacts how some child traits would develop. I.e. I send my heir to Gregarious person if he shows indolency..
Brave if rowdy to avoid dull.
Also the bonuses you can give by sacrifising your existing character. I like that.
I dont like only that ward does not matter for education type. That should be fixed.
 

PK_AZ

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To get things done, you need to interact with your vassals and other characters
...using diplomacy system worse than in Total war: Shogun 2 (it's some cool international-level hack'n'slash).

Push one button, and suddenly your Martial stat increased, and you will live longer. Push another, and you can boost your Diplomacy stat, and up the odds that your character will have children. Or another, and boost your Intrigue, your chance at children, and gain access to the ability to attempt to seduce almost anyone you might want to. Before, if your character was poorly skilled in a certain area, you could decide to try to improve that skill, and there would be the occasional event depicting your character gradually improving themself. Now? Just press the right button, and so long as you don't press another, you'll instantly gain a significant boost.
Uh, no, it's not what focuses are for. +3 to attribute is (quite OP, but still) nothing compared to events and actions.

if you wanted to invite your courtiers or vassals on a hunt, it merely had to be the proper time of year, and you needed the funds. Now, you also need to have pressed the proper button first, the same with pilgrimages.
This is not the case for CK2. The vast majority of CK2's mechanics are built around the idea of being more hands off, so to speak, guiding your realm as its liege.
So what exactly do you want? Active, or reactive, gameplay?

but it does absolutely guarantee that you'll get the education type you want
But not education tier nor traits you want.
 

Asiak

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I agree with the notion that the WoL focus buttons referring blatantly to stats is a bit jarring, it does feel oddly control panelish. And I agree with your estimation of both games.

But I disagree that 'bacon' buttons or a more control panel like interface can't or shouldn't be used.

And I especially disagree that WoL added to much control. And tbh the description of it being an instant thing is just wrong. Besides the fact that it takes 5 years to change. Those events generally take much longer then that fire. Yea it's an instant gain but you loose that instant gain when you change the focus keeping only what you gained through events. And I really don't see it as unrealistic to for a person of this time period to focus on one of these things for that amount of time.

Can we really claim that a game feature as vague as 'focus' with such general terms as 'Family' and 'War' can be described as too precise. Especially when it sometimes takes decades to really reap all the benefits of that focus.

I'm sorry but just because you click the button and min max it in five years by pressing the others doesn't mean the system can in anyway be describes as instant gratification.

Try and actually level up courousing then talk to me.

And you do realize that you're complaining about to much control, to blatant of control regarding WoL focuses.
But then you want more control over your child's education?

but it does absolutely guarantee that you'll get the education type you want, and if you play the trait minigame, you'll likely get a decent quality as well. No need to interact with or consider any of the other characters that make up the rest of the game, just push the right button and you'll get what you want.

Yes it does guarantee that. There is still plenty of interaction if you raise the child yourself. You still need to pick an education focus that meshes well with his childhood focus, you can still pick a smarter educator for a better education. Or an educator with certain traits you know will override certain child traits.

It is not without interaction. I honestly still haven't formed my full opinion on the new education but it as at least as good as it was I think.
 
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Jorlem

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...using diplomacy system worse than in Total war: Shogun 2 (it's some cool international-level hack'n'slash).
Never played it.

So what exactly do you want? Active, or reactive, gameplay?
Both. What I don't want are buttons where you press them, and it makes some change independent of everything else.


Uh, no, it's not what focuses are for. +3 to attribute is (quite OP, but still) nothing compared to events and actions.
As I have clarified in later posts, I'm fine with the events and actions (though I'd prefer most of the actions not be gated, boosted at most). It is things like the health boost from Hunting, or the fertility and opinion boosts from diplomacy, along with the attribute boosts, that I object to. Get rid of those, and the vast majority of my objections would vanish.
But not education tier nor traits you want.
Yes, which is something I rather like. However, with the way you can set the type of education, and how the effect educators have on their ward's traits are minimal at best (they need to have the right trait to have a chance to influence the ward's trait when it becomes an adult trait, and even then it can fail), there doesn't appear to me to be a decent incentive to select who will educate the child beyond who you need the opinion boost with. As I've said upthread, getting rid of the focii and replacing them with a hybrid system where the educator's education trait matters while keeping the childhood traits and events would, I feel, result in a much more engaging system. Perhaps a few events could be added, for childhood traits for the education trait, to prevent the trick of swapping educators at the last day before the child turns 16.
 

Sergeant Flutter

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I think it'd be nice if they added a chance for everything to go wrong with your Focus that you choose on WoL.

Education's pretty similar to how it used to be, it just has a better UI and two tiers. You should choose how your kid gets taught after all, and they don't always learn well.
 
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blaidd

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Actually, I was playing CK2 over the weekend and I came to more-or-less this same conclusion.

I bought Way of Life and Conclave because they were supposed to be 'role playing' focused DLCs that added depth to your characters, but I feel like I lost at least as much content as I gained from them. The person above who mentioned 'active' vs 'reactive' may be onto something. The DLCs give you a lot more control over shaping individual characters exactly the way that you want them but I think it also serves to make them feel less like people and more like blocks of numbers you can manipulate.

I also feel like there is a lot less for my characters to do. Do you guys change your focus around a lot? I tend to just set one for each character and leave it alone unless circumstances change, so maybe that's my problem. If left to my own devices I tend to chose Hunting (stat boosts), Family (need an heir) or Business (free money). I like to land my heirs so the AI chooses a focus for them and then keep it to at least introduce some variety.

I'm not like, oh this year my hunter king wants to have a feast so let me change my focus, but maybe I should do that.
 
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Narvait

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That (always chosing same focuse) is a problem. My golden Standard:
Young king - business (money)
Old king - hunting (health).

My current king is on War focus (need every levy to survive), some before were Intrigue guys to kill/imprison wrong vassals.
If difficulties with heir - Seduction.

OK, on second thought it is not that bad :)

Except learning focuses, those I've only done for AAR purposes.
 

Thrake

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Then the WoL Focuses were added. A set of ten "bacon buttons", granting a choice of bonuses an options for your character, all at the push of a button. Push one button, and suddenly your Martial stat increased, and you will live longer. Push another, and you can boost your Diplomacy stat, and up the odds that your character will have children. Or another, and boost your Intrigue, your chance at children, and gain access to the ability to attempt to seduce almost anyone you might want to. Before, if your character was poorly skilled in a certain area, you could decide to try to improve that skill, and there would be the occasional event depicting your character gradually improving themself. Now? Just press the right button, and so long as you don't press another, you'll instantly gain a significant boost. Before, if you wanted to invite your courtiers or vassals on a hunt, it merely had to be the proper time of year, and you needed the funds. Now, you also need to have pressed the proper button first, the same with pilgrimages.

A similar issue exists with Conclave's education system. With the old education system, you had to consider who you wanted to place the child with, yourself, a vassal to ensure loyalty, or perhaps a better educated courtier. Also playing into this was considering what types of education each character had, as that mattered for how the child would be educated. Now, you merely push the button for the education type you want, and send them off to the vassal for the opinion boost when they reach stage two. This is a somewhat different kind of bacon button, as it doesn't provide the instant gratification that the others do, but it does absolutely guarantee that you'll get the education type you want, and if you play the trait minigame, you'll likely get a decent quality as well. No need to interact with or consider any of the other characters that make up the rest of the game, just push the right button and you'll get what you want.

I certainly agree for the wol part, but disagree for the conclave one.

wol part is bacon button and feels a bit gamey to press a button, loose 3 martial in favor of 2 stewardship overnight. It gets worse as there are events that trigger for low stat much more than high stats, meaning that it levels down characters uniqueness. Like, if I have a 0 martial guy, I'll press the magical button and will get the asian warrior events while apparently it's locked for anyone with more than 6 martial or so. So now each of my rulers ends up with almost every stats at 6 eventually, because the frequency of those events makes it very powerful, much more than trying to increase martial for a 20 martial guy so this removes part of choices in picking foci (or offers a mix of good choices among obviously less interesting ones).

I certainly do disagree with the conclave education part though. Previously the system was much more abusable and while the effective education was partly random, it was too closely linked to the mentor ability (a good mentor helps but a genius will not raise consistently geniuses; some people are brilliant, others are not but it would be naive to think that it's all the mentor's merit or fault). Now however, I certainly can consider that I could dictate my vassals that I want them to give basics concepts in many fields, but insist on the importance of warefare. And that will give a kid with martial education, because he spent half his time learning stuff about that. I don't know if he will be a good tactician however. In the end, I get a more random result typically, which is more realistic and desirable IMO. I just choosed that he will get a few extra stat points in martial and I have then to live with wathever personality my heir has, and it sometimes create interesting outcomes, like a very skilled martial character but clueless at anything else, or someone who ended up with poor martial education but somehow managed to raise his other stats well so that he's all-rounded.

Previously, picking mentors really felt microish and unappealing; I could certainly control rather strictly my heirs education and consistently end up with 7 virtued kings (or so), but it felt gamey and really destroyed any challenge. Now I've got a mix of choice and random outcome without gamey feel.