Asturias; Charlemagne start

[Bolachinha]

Hey all

I've been thinking about this issue. It makes no sense that soon after the start of Charlemagne start the Ummayads just steam role Asturias and the south of France. Its historically wrong and they are way overpowered, they managed to get atleast an alliance with the Sultan of Africa, what makes veerything even grimmer for christians.
I think that Asturias should have a perk, some event that give more troops/moral/organization while they are the underdog in Iberia peninsula. When the power shifts, this event should cease.
What do you think?

 

[FifthMonarchy]

I think you're right there's an issue but I'd prefer a solution that made it as hard as it appears to have been historically for larger nations to just steamroll over and obliterate their neighbours (not saying that never happened), as that would help in east Africa too where the small Christian polities get the same off Egypt.

 

[Dakilla TM]

You can try giving Asturias some event troops. But this issues has been here since Charlemagne and PDox hasn't said much about it

 

[Dragatus]

The core issue is that the game does not simulate the things that helped Asturitas survive very well. It was fairly remote, had no major population centers to be occupied, and the landscape there is quite rugged. But in CK2 it's provices can be sieged down and occupied as well as any others and guerilla fighting is not a thing.

 

[The Duke of GTFO]

Are you suggesting that a muslim faction gets nerfed?

Don't even dare!!!

 

[Ayetach]

To be fair, Frankish inroads from the Pyrenees did contribute to Ummayads being kept in check. In some games I play I see this exact thing, and not surprisingly in other games when the Franks don't do anything about Iberia the Austurian kings face a more difficult battle to maintain the balance of power.

 

[Gorgonkain]

To be fair, Frankish inroads from the Pyrenees did contribute to Ummayads being kept in check. In some games I play I see this exact thing, and not surprisingly in other games when the Franks don't do anything about Iberia the Austurian kings face a more difficult battle to maintain the balance of power.

Exactly this. In CM start if Asturias secures an alliance with the Karlings fairly quickly, or Charlie starts taking chunks out of Barcelona, I have seen them hold out for a good long time. Maybe the simple solution would be to automatically have an alliance with the Karlings and Asturias. Then again, this might also cause Francia to splinter into even more border-gore with less troops to manage revolts (the starting "Hate" modifiers on some powerful vassals is really dumb.)

In ToG, because Asturias is Karling controlled, I have rarely seen them fall or take any real, significant hits.

 

[Bolachinha]

To be fair, Frankish inroads from the Pyrenees did contribute to Ummayads being kept in check. In some games I play I see this exact thing, and not surprisingly in other games when the Franks don't do anything about Iberia the Austurian kings face a more difficult battle to maintain the balance of power.

The Asturian visigoths fought a burned land war until they reorganized themselves and started taking back the land. The Franks created the "Hispanic mark" a lot of small states ij the Pirenees (Andorra is the last survival state). The Asturian visigoths held it and restarted conquering by themselves

 

[Bolachinha]

Exactly this. In CM start if Asturias secures an alliance with the Karlings fairly quickly, or Charlie starts taking chunks out of Barcelona, I have seen them hold out for a good long time. Maybe the simple solution would be to automatically have an alliance with the Karlings and Asturias. Then again, this might also cause Francia to splinter into even more border-gore with less troops to manage revolts (the starting "Hate" modifiers on some powerful vassals is really dumb.)

In ToG, because Asturias is Karling controlled, I have rarely seen them fall or take any real, significant hits.

How many times have you seen Charlemagne creating HRE? Ive never seen, the Empire always falls and gets divided in small pieces....

 

[M@ni@c]

Perhaps a mod could try giving the Asturian cultural building a fort or garrison modifier. Every bit helps to stem the tide.

 

[Bolachinha]

I appreciate mods but this should be something that PDX should had already addressed. It would be cool to have an event like "Last bastion of Christdoom".

 

[Arsonik]

How many times have you seen Charlemagne creating HRE? Ive never seen, the Empire always falls and gets divided in small pieces....

I've seen HRE and Francia both quite often.

 

[Mekud]

I've restarted the game for at least 8-9 times for the last couple of days exactly because of this. Playing as Asturias seems very difficult to me and -even worse - pretty much based on luck.
1. The Ummyads are just too strong. They are pretty stable, have lots of troops and their realm rarely falls into pieces. In one game I once played they even conquered most of Frace and the whole of Italy. Somethimes they 've even declared war on me within the first few years (which means within 1-2 minutes in the game). Sometimes I could fight them back once or twice and even conquer some of their land but they kept on attacking me on a very regular basis and finally I've always lost so far (or quit the game because I was frustrated).
2. Charlemagne is usually not much of a help. Often, he dies early and/ or his kingdom falls apart into many pieces. Alliances with other christian states are of course possible but very often they struggle with revolts themselves and will not help you.
3. The initial ruler of asturias is pretty old and often dies within in few years. Often, his successor dies as well and you will end up with a child ruler.

So overall, very difficult and based on luck. Very frustrating and as it has been stated here before - the way the games usually develops seems pretty ahistorical hope. I can make it some day.
Nevertheless....please Paradox, patch this! Ummayads are just too strong.

 

[mrstevehazzard]

For Austurias, the Umayyads never conquered it because honestly the land wasn't worth it; the Umayyads took all the fertile, valuable land in Iberia and left the Christians with the rocky, mountainous North. The problem in CKII is that there's no way for the engine to consider this: to the AI, land is land.

As for the Umayyads taking Southern France, that's what happened in history, too, just 30 years before the start of the game. They were stopped at Tours, which is up in North-Central France, and then the Franks conquered their way South to get their land back. And even Tours wasn't a sure thing. Before the battle, the Muslims had only lost one other invasion, and that was against the Byzantine Empire.

 

[StarSword]

Maybe give the Asturian native culture (don't know it offhand) a defensive attrition feature like defensive pagans get?

For the moment your best bet is to marry into Lombardy, Francia, or at a stretch the Byzantines for an alliance.

 

[Bolachinha]

I've seen HRE and Francia both quite often.

Never seen it. And I played it a lot. Francia seems to be hopeless, full of revolts and taking on Saxony for 2 years later 15k stacks of rebel saxons... Only if Im playing a vassal of Francia is the only way they can hold the realm (I have to use my soldiers to help the king).

I've restarted the game for at least 8-9 times for the last couple of days exactly because of this. Playing as Asturias seems very difficult to me and -even worse - pretty much based on luck.
1. The Ummyads are just too strong. They are pretty stable, have lots of troops and their realm rarely falls into pieces. In one game I once played they even conquered most of Frace and the whole of Italy. Somethimes they 've even declared war on me within the first few years (which means within 1-2 minutes in the game). Sometimes I could fight them back once or twice and even conquer some of their land but they kept on attacking me on a very regular basis and finally I've always lost so far (or quit the game because I was frustrated).
2. Charlemagne is usually not much of a help. Often, he dies early and/ or his kingdom falls apart into many pieces. Alliances with other christian states are of course possible but very often they struggle with revolts themselves and will not help you.
3. The initial ruler of asturias is pretty old and often dies within in few years. Often, his successor dies as well and you will end up with a child ruler.

So overall, very difficult and based on luck. Very frustrating and as it has been stated here before - the way the games usually develops seems pretty ahistorical hope. I can make it some day.
Nevertheless....please Paradox, patch this! Ummayads are just too strong.

Well I played the same. The AI is just hopeless. All I can tell you is to always have atleast 1000 gold as reserve if you wish to wage a conquest war. You can have 600 or so if you are planning only on defending. Remember to get loans from the jews and expelling them afterwards if you need money. This money is essential to get lots of mercs. Play with the mountains, always fight in river crossings, mountains as you get bonuses. Always have generals assigned to all your flanks. Get an early alliance with the Karlings, they have this 14yo sister who will marry you easy. You can try the Byzantines, but they wont want anything to do with you in terms of alliances (usually). Get your diplomate to increase relations with the ummayad sultan.- This will ensure he wont attack you that often if he likes you enough. Defend against their invasion, you win and you get gold, if you are over 1000 gold and they are weak/other wars/low soldiers take this an take a big chunck of land (Portucale is my pick as it has 4 provinces). Repeat this try to keep Francia/Byzantines/Lombardy as allies. Dont trust your allies to give you a huge help on wars, sometimes you are close to win and a 100 men revolt erupts somewhere in their kingdom and all of their 8k army just goes back.

For Austurias, the Umayyads never conquered it because honestly the land wasn't worth it; the Umayyads took all the fertile, valuable land in Iberia and left the Christians with the rocky, mountainous North. The problem in CKII is that there's no way for the engine to consider this: to the AI, land is land.

As for the Umayyads taking Southern France, that's what happened in history, too, just 30 years before the start of the game. They were stopped at Tours, which is up in North-Central France, and then the Franks conquered their way South to get their land back. And even Tours wasn't a sure thing. Before the battle, the Muslims had only lost one other invasion, and that was against the Byzantine Empire.

It was an attrition war and since 722 (Covadonga battle) the reconquista started steady. Theres a visigothic chronic that states the strategy of burned land to avoid invasion. It worked long enough for the stablishmen of a dinasty and recovery of military organization needed to push the muslims back to Africa.