I think they should do something similar to CK3 and have sliders and options at start. This way we can all play according to our tastes.
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Assimilation: The Rome & Maurya Issue
- Thread starter We Who Are About 2 Die
- Start date
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When I annex land with wrong culture and religion, I see the speed at 0.26 at times. That's how many years for 1 pop to convert? And then the religion after that.
But sure, we all play differently. I want everyone to convert/assimilate to me when I play. And I also want to happen long before the game ends, else it was no point in investing all those resources to it.
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Yeeeeeah. I won't knock it. That is the antithesis of how I play. I like to balance cultures and difficulty that brings, rather that just covert everything. To each his own.
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What about giving each pop the possibility of having a secondary culture. When a pop assimilates it will get your culture as a secondary culture unless it already does so. Only if it already has your culture as a secondary culture already will it change primary culture. That could allow the conqueror to benefit from assimilation without completely destroying the existing cultures. I think it's also more historically accurate. I get the impression that a lot of the provincial population were quite heavily romanized, but still kept a certain regional culture as well.
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How many culture groups are there in IR? Just make a prefix for each of them, the issue is how do you decide name list. And what happens if you half assimilate that culture as another culture group, frankish iberic latinised Macedonian?
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Same. I noticed that the desert Libyan region of Egypt would convert while the Delta stayed pretty much the same.
Damn Elegabalus wasn't the first twink ruler of Rome
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I liked this concept so much that I went to the wiki to check viability and spoilers: it doesn't look any good
There are two things here that work against it. All in all, it seems like the current system is build up the opposite way: balance is solely done through assimilation speed.
1. Having every single territory assimilating one pop is counterintuitive and really works againts history: the more territories you control the relatively faster you will assimilate. Without going into other effects: you are better off conquering 100 territories asap than gradually expanding your borders for a few territories every generation.
2. But the thing that breaks the neck is that a RANDOM pop is chosen. The whole thing is balanced around the duration of that one pop you're assimilating right now, so you cannot compensate point 1 with extremely increasing times for freemen or below anymore, because if a freeman gets randomly chosen in a city, you cripple the whole operation anyways.
I really see no way out other than introducing at least some kind of basic weighting for pop selection, which would indoubtably increase cpu usage. If anybody has an idea for a more efficient workaround, please speak up.
Since we are now in dream territory anyways, let me introduce you to my ideal system:
*Please note that this is a first draft, on paper, from just 50h democratic helenistic experience. Special buildings and techs as well as other government types are not considered.
Anchor Assimilation on Province level:
How many pops will be assimilated in the province?Territory:
Max. Assimilation Slots: 2 (instead of the current "1" max and min)
Province: (Rounded down)
Base: 0.25 Potential Pops to Assimilate (PPA)
+0.36 PPA per owned Territory in a Province
+0.50 PPA per owned City in a Province
+0.75 PPA per owned Metropolis in a Province
+0.50 PPA per presence of Subject in the Province
+0.05 PPA per owned Road in Province
+0.50 PPA per owned Wonder in a Province
+0.01 PPA per owned non integrated Pop in the Province
The intention behind the numbers:
This means that you need to control at least 2 villages or 1 city or have a village and a subject in the province to even begin to assimilate 1 pop. It also means that not every territory is assimilating one pop all the time, some can be at 0, some at 2.
Dominant Culture in a Province (regardless of borders, civ level, whatever) assimilates 1 pop at a time in a random territory:
Provincial culture is still palpable to this day. Take mainland Spain as an example: Andalusia, Aragon, Basqueland, Catalonia, Galicia, the Castillas and Valencia have still very distinct cultures whose origins date at least a few centuries back, even with todays communication technology and homogenization efforts under Franco. This shows the importance and resilence of the core provincial culture.
Now that we have established how many pops we are able to assimilate simultaniously per province, let's look at how pops would be selected.
Territory Selection:
In what territory will a pop be assimilated?Territory:
Requirement: elegible pop available.
Base: Number of PPA / Number of Owned Territories in Province with elegible pops.
Modifiers:
+50% for Nation Capital (it is the main focus of your nations efforts)
+30% for Province Capital (it is the regional focus of your nations efforts)
+15% for City (urban people easily forget their origins and folklore)
+20% for Metropolis (same as city, but it plateaues)
- 20% for Village (if you have ever been to village festivities, you know why)
- 10% for Desert, Jungle, Mountain, Marsh (harsh terrain reinforces tradition)
- 5% for Hills, Forest (same as above)
+10% per Fort level (your fort, your garrisson, your culture)
- 5% per Port level (more chances of finding seamen of the own culture, so why convert?)
+20% for Dominant Culture = Primary Culture (peer pressure)
+10% for Dominant Culture = Primary Culture Group (peer pressure)
+15% for Dominant Religion = State Religion (peer pressure)
+20% if Temple of State Religion is present
+50% if Temple of State Pantheon is present
+ 0.2% per elegible Pop
- 50% if 1 Assimilation Slot is already in use.
The intentions behind the numbers:
Urban and familiar Territories are heaviliy prioritized before remote Villages. It is easier to lose ones roots in an urban environment and having nice Temples should get the State to focus on the Territory.
Pop selection:
Which Pop will be assimilated in this Territory?Noble:
Base: 2
+0.5 per Noble of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.4 per Noble of Same Culture in Territory
+0.1 per Citizen of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Slave of Same Culture in Territory
- 0.3 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.5 per Library
+0.5 per Academy
+0.2 per Marketplace
+0.3 per Court of Law
- 0.5 per Tax office
- 0.5 per Mill
Citizen:
Base: 4
+0.3 per Noble of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.2 per Citizen of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.5 per Freeman of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.2 per Port level
+0.3 per Library
+0.3 per Academy
+0.5 per Marketplace
+0.5 per Court of Law
- 0.1 per Training Camp
- 0.1 per Forum
- 0.3 per Tax office
- 0.2 per Mill
Freeman:
Base: 1
+0.2 per Citizen of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.3 per Freeman of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.5 per Fort level
+0.1 per Library
+0.1 per Academy
+0.3 per Marketplace
+0.3 per Court of Law
+0.5 per Training Camp
+0.5 per Forum
- 0.2 per Tax office
Slave:
Base: 0.5
+0.5 per Noble of Primary Culture in Territory
- 1.0 per Noble of Same Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Freeman of same Culture in Territory
+0.3 per Slave of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.1 per Fort level
+0.5 per Marketplace
+0.2 per Court of Law
+0.3 per Training Camp
+0.1 per Forum
+1.0 per Tax office
+1.0 per Mill
Tribesmen:
Base: 0.2
- 0.5 per Noble in Territory
- 0.2 per Citizen in Territory
+0.3 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.5 per Marketplace
+0.3 per Court of Law
+0.2 per Training Camp
+0.4 per Forum
+0.2 per Tax office
+0.2 per Mill
For all:
+100% if same culture group
+ 50% if State religion
The intentions behind the numbers:
Citizens are the backbone of culture: they have contact with every social class and are the most (inter)activ group. They look up to nobles, copy their peers and even consider the trends of the lesser. Nobles tend to go with the tides, so once the balance tips, they will adapt en masse. Freeman despise nobility, want to leave slavery behind and look up to become citizen, but some may feel the pull of the ways of old. Slaves adapt to their nobles and freemen want nothing to do with it all, better to have them move in strata. Cultural similarities are important and religion is half of a culture.
Assimilation Speed:
How fast will the Pop be assimilated?Base: 1 (whatever that means)
+100% if same Culture Group
+ 60% if State Religion
+ 40% if Primary Culture is Dominant Culture in Province
+20% in City
+25% in Metropolis
- 20% in Village
+25% in Nation Capital
+10% in Provincial Capital
+ 0.5% per Civ level
+ 5% per Fort level
+ 2% per Port level
+ 2% per Road
+ 0.5% per Primary Culture Pop in Territory
+ 0.1% per Primary Culture Pop in Province
- 50% if Dominant Culture is not in Culture Group
- 20% if Religion is not in State Religion
+20% if Temple of State Religion is present
+50% if Temple of State Pantheon is present
The intentions behind the numbers:
Close cultures should convert relatively easy and, as said before, religion is at least half the culture. Also Urban life makes conversion easier: old traditions can no longer be lived in an urban environment, while new ceremonies of conquering nations are probably hold primarily in populated cities.
I am sure there are ways to simplify this to get some performance, while maintaining enough of the spirit so it still feels natural and not like a gamey boardgame mechanic (siege, I am looking at you!).
Main Points:
- Assimilation is anchored on a Province level.- Assimilation has a clear preference for same culture group, state religion Citizens in an urban territory; and interest to assimilate trickles from there.
- Citizes convert gradually, while nobles wait for the "turning point" to convert en masse; Freemen and Slaves are somewhere in between. Tribesmen are reluctant.
- Religion is a big part of Culture.
- Urban Pops assimilate earlier, same Culture Pops assimilate faster.
- Concepts of Potential Pops to Assimilate, Pop Elegibility and Assimilation Speed are all important and offer new paths for Techs, Laws, Budgets, Omens, Relics, etc.
- Buildings shall be reworked to offer synergies for aforementioned modifiers.
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Republic of Play covered cultures and assimilation in his video from August. I agree with him that the Devs got the history wrong. The way the culture/assimilation mechanics work are thematically and historically backwards. They should revise it at some point.
And I also agree with Darren that the way they changed Republic government mechanics were a downgrade in multiple ways. It's kind of a nonsensical mess now.
And I also agree with Darren that the way they changed Republic government mechanics were a downgrade in multiple ways. It's kind of a nonsensical mess now.
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Lots of good ideas here.
I'd like to see assimilated cultures hybridize (romano-whatever). It'd be cool to see how cultures have evolved, not just changed to a homogenous whole. It'd be purely aesthetic but fun anyway.
Also, I wish integration was less restrictive and a real alternative to assimilation. I haven't played too much with integration yet because assimilation is so much better w/o the -4% happyness per culture (and easier if you use rural provinces to game the process), but it seems like something really cool could be done with the whole system. I could be wrong about that but in all my long term games integration becomes fairly useless once you start assimilating large swaths of the game world with young governors set to assimilate culture. Getting a -4% hit to happiness for your your main culture eventually (always?) just becomes unacceptable.
It'd be interesting if different levels of integration had different penalties (rather than the flat 4% for either citizen or noble) and eventually evolve the culture to a hybrid culture (assimilating them but in twice the time as active assimilation, for example). Maybe also have happyness bonuses for designating some cultures as slaves (less social competition and cheap labor makes primary culture happy??) allowing you to afford a couple more integrated cultures, and all this could be modified by techs and traditions. Reducing the penalty for integration, changing the value for certain societal class integration levels based on culture (for example, some cultures would have less of a problem with the integration of citizens vs nobles, or tribesmen vs freemen, based on cultural biases).
These are maybe just fever dreams. I think the integration system is far more interesting than an assimilation process that is blandly automated (and not very well), but unfortunately integration just isn't actually very useful overall.
I'd like to see assimilated cultures hybridize (romano-whatever). It'd be cool to see how cultures have evolved, not just changed to a homogenous whole. It'd be purely aesthetic but fun anyway.
Also, I wish integration was less restrictive and a real alternative to assimilation. I haven't played too much with integration yet because assimilation is so much better w/o the -4% happyness per culture (and easier if you use rural provinces to game the process), but it seems like something really cool could be done with the whole system. I could be wrong about that but in all my long term games integration becomes fairly useless once you start assimilating large swaths of the game world with young governors set to assimilate culture. Getting a -4% hit to happiness for your your main culture eventually (always?) just becomes unacceptable.
It'd be interesting if different levels of integration had different penalties (rather than the flat 4% for either citizen or noble) and eventually evolve the culture to a hybrid culture (assimilating them but in twice the time as active assimilation, for example). Maybe also have happyness bonuses for designating some cultures as slaves (less social competition and cheap labor makes primary culture happy??) allowing you to afford a couple more integrated cultures, and all this could be modified by techs and traditions. Reducing the penalty for integration, changing the value for certain societal class integration levels based on culture (for example, some cultures would have less of a problem with the integration of citizens vs nobles, or tribesmen vs freemen, based on cultural biases).
These are maybe just fever dreams. I think the integration system is far more interesting than an assimilation process that is blandly automated (and not very well), but unfortunately integration just isn't actually very useful overall.
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Animosity
I understand why the happiness penalty from integrating cultures exist. They don't want you to simply remove the happiness penalties for cultures by integrating every single culture you conquer pops from. But the implementation feels wonky. As Rome for example you probably want to integrate Punic for instance, making all the former citizens of the Carthaginian empire fully integrated romans within a few years of conquering Carthage. That doesn't feel right.
My suggestion: A mechanic called animosity. All cultures can have animosity for every other culture. Any time two countries are at war their cultures (assuming they're different) gain animosity towards each other scaled to the portion of the pops of their respective cultures that live in each of the countries. When a pop is killed by pillaging the victim culture gains a large amount of animosity towards the culture of the looter. Enslaving pops would do the same to a lesser degree. When a culture gains animosity towards a culture of a different culture group it also gains a lesser amount of animosity towards other cultures in the same group.
Integrating a culture could then require low animosity, making it impossible to instantly integrating the culture of a hated enemy the moment you defeat them. This would also make it possible to lower the penalties for integrating cultures while still limiting your ability to spam it endlessly.
My suggestion: A mechanic called animosity. All cultures can have animosity for every other culture. Any time two countries are at war their cultures (assuming they're different) gain animosity towards each other scaled to the portion of the pops of their respective cultures that live in each of the countries. When a pop is killed by pillaging the victim culture gains a large amount of animosity towards the culture of the looter. Enslaving pops would do the same to a lesser degree. When a culture gains animosity towards a culture of a different culture group it also gains a lesser amount of animosity towards other cultures in the same group.
Integrating a culture could then require low animosity, making it impossible to instantly integrating the culture of a hated enemy the moment you defeat them. This would also make it possible to lower the penalties for integrating cultures while still limiting your ability to spam it endlessly.
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Well, sure, but the numbers could be adjusted to allow for more use of a far more interesting mechanic than the easy and boring assimilation process. As it is assimilation is way better than integration (mechanically) and far less interesting. I had never actually used integration until my last play through. I get why they did it, but I think being limited to one or two integrated cultures just underutilizes a mechanic that has far more mileage than assimilation. As it is now I just assimilate the entire world and stop thinking about it. Seems more unbalanced than making integration more useful/dynamic would be.
I like the idea of animosity. It could also be used to as a positive bonus as well. You could have positive (negative?) animosity that makes it harder to keep certain cultures enslaved, drive up war exhaustion (if at war with a 'friendly' culture), etc. lots of potential here.
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Some very insightful suggestions in this thread, but to answer specifically to OPs issues, I think only two tweaks are really necessary.
First, tweak the AI so it always integrates certain cultures when given the chance.
Specifically, Macedonian for Rome and the biggest culture of each Indian culture groups for Maurya (for example, Avanti and Telugu).
Second, change assimilation so that, instead of always assimilating to your primary culture, it always assimilates to a culture of their group which you have integrated, if you have any (if you don't, primary culture it is).
That way, Greece would become entirely Macedonian under Rome, and Maurya would still have cultural diversity, just more consolidated (and be split between, for the previous example, Magadhi, Avanti and Telugu).
In practice, this doesn't change much, as integrated cultures behave the same as your primary, so assimilation is still very beneficial, but it does make the game far less homogenous in the long run.
But that's for the AI, I feel like there's an opportunity to be had with players here.
I think assimilation could have its speed increased (not by much, say, 15 or 25%?) when assimilating into the same culture group.
That way, players would actually be encouraged to engage in the process I described above, and would give integration a nice boost.
First, tweak the AI so it always integrates certain cultures when given the chance.
Specifically, Macedonian for Rome and the biggest culture of each Indian culture groups for Maurya (for example, Avanti and Telugu).
Second, change assimilation so that, instead of always assimilating to your primary culture, it always assimilates to a culture of their group which you have integrated, if you have any (if you don't, primary culture it is).
That way, Greece would become entirely Macedonian under Rome, and Maurya would still have cultural diversity, just more consolidated (and be split between, for the previous example, Magadhi, Avanti and Telugu).
In practice, this doesn't change much, as integrated cultures behave the same as your primary, so assimilation is still very beneficial, but it does make the game far less homogenous in the long run.
But that's for the AI, I feel like there's an opportunity to be had with players here.
I think assimilation could have its speed increased (not by much, say, 15 or 25%?) when assimilating into the same culture group.
That way, players would actually be encouraged to engage in the process I described above, and would give integration a nice boost.
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I really like some of these suggestions. Having multiple cities in a territory enabling faster assimilation makes perfect sense. However I disagree with your regionalism comment on Spain because people can have dual identities and a regional identity might be one used sparingly but still sometimes used by a person.I liked this concept so much that I went to the wiki to check viability and spoilers: it doesn't look any good
There are two things here that work against it. All in all, it seems like the current system is build up the opposite way: balance is solely done through assimilation speed.
1. Having every single territory assimilating one pop is counterintuitive and really works againts history: the more territories you control the relatively faster you will assimilate. Without going into other effects: you are better off conquering 100 territories asap than gradually expanding your borders for a few territories every generation.
2. But the thing that breaks the neck is that a RANDOM pop is chosen. The whole thing is balanced around the duration of that one pop you're assimilating right now, so you cannot compensate point 1 with extremely increasing times for freemen or below anymore, because if a freeman gets randomly chosen in a city, you cripple the whole operation anyways.
I really see no way out other than introducing at least some kind of basic weighting for pop selection, which would indoubtably increase cpu usage. If anybody has an idea for a more efficient workaround, please speak up.
Since we are now in dream territory anyways, let me introduce you to my ideal system:
*Please note that this is a first draft, on paper, from just 50h democratic helenistic experience. Special buildings and techs as well as other government types are not considered.
Anchor Assimilation on Province level:
How many pops will be assimilated in the province?
Territory:
Max. Assimilation Slots: 2 (instead of the current "1" max and min)
Province: (Rounded down)
Base: 0.25 Potential Pops to Assimilate (PPA)
+0.36 PPA per owned Territory in a Province
+0.50 PPA per owned City in a Province
+0.75 PPA per owned Metropolis in a Province
+0.50 PPA per presence of Subject in the Province
+0.05 PPA per owned Road in Province
+0.50 PPA per owned Wonder in a Province
+0.01 PPA per owned non integrated Pop in the Province
The intention behind the numbers:
This means that you need to control at least 2 villages or 1 city or have a village and a subject in the province to even begin to assimilate 1 pop. It also means that not every territory is assimilating one pop all the time, some can be at 0, some at 2.
Dominant Culture in a Province (regardless of borders, civ level, whatever) assimilates 1 pop at a time in a random territory:
Provincial culture is still palpable to this day. Take mainland Spain as an example: Andalusia, Aragon, Basqueland, Catalonia, Galicia, the Castillas and Valencia have still very distinct cultures whose origins date at least a few centuries back, even with todays communication technology and homogenization efforts under Franco. This shows the importance and resilence of the core provincial culture.
Now that we have established how many pops we are able to assimilate simultaniously per province, let's look at how pops would be selected.
Territory Selection:
In what territory will a pop be assimilated?
Territory:
Requirement: elegible pop available.
Base: Number of PPA / Number of Owned Territories in Province with elegible pops.
Modifiers:
+50% for Nation Capital (it is the main focus of your nations efforts)
+30% for Province Capital (it is the regional focus of your nations efforts)
+15% for City (urban people easily forget their origins and folklore)
+20% for Metropolis (same as city, but it plateaues)
- 20% for Village (if you have ever been to village festivities, you know why)
- 10% for Desert, Jungle, Mountain, Marsh (harsh terrain reinforces tradition)
- 5% for Hills, Forest (same as above)
+10% per Fort level (your fort, your garrisson, your culture)
- 5% per Port level (more chances of finding seamen of the own culture, so why convert?)
+20% for Dominant Culture = Primary Culture (peer pressure)
+10% for Dominant Culture = Primary Culture Group (peer pressure)
+15% for Dominant Religion = State Religion (peer pressure)
+20% if Temple of State Religion is present
+50% if Temple of State Pantheon is present
+ 0.2% per elegible Pop
- 50% if 1 Assimilation Slot is already in use.
The intentions behind the numbers:
Urban and familiar Territories are heaviliy prioritized before remote Villages. It is easier to lose ones roots in an urban environment and having nice Temples should get the State to focus on the Territory.
Pop selection:
Which Pop will be assimilated in this Territory?
Noble:
Base: 2
+0.5 per Noble of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.4 per Noble of Same Culture in Territory
+0.1 per Citizen of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Slave of Same Culture in Territory
- 0.3 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.5 per Library
+0.5 per Academy
+0.2 per Marketplace
+0.3 per Court of Law
- 0.5 per Tax office
- 0.5 per Mill
Citizen:
Base: 4
+0.3 per Noble of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.2 per Citizen of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.5 per Freeman of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.2 per Port level
+0.3 per Library
+0.3 per Academy
+0.5 per Marketplace
+0.5 per Court of Law
- 0.1 per Training Camp
- 0.1 per Forum
- 0.3 per Tax office
- 0.2 per Mill
Freeman:
Base: 1
+0.2 per Citizen of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.3 per Freeman of Primary Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.5 per Fort level
+0.1 per Library
+0.1 per Academy
+0.3 per Marketplace
+0.3 per Court of Law
+0.5 per Training Camp
+0.5 per Forum
- 0.2 per Tax office
Slave:
Base: 0.5
+0.5 per Noble of Primary Culture in Territory
- 1.0 per Noble of Same Culture in Territory
- 0.1 per Freeman of same Culture in Territory
+0.3 per Slave of Primary Culture in Territory
+0.1 per Fort level
+0.5 per Marketplace
+0.2 per Court of Law
+0.3 per Training Camp
+0.1 per Forum
+1.0 per Tax office
+1.0 per Mill
Tribesmen:
Base: 0.2
- 0.5 per Noble in Territory
- 0.2 per Citizen in Territory
+0.3 per Tribesmen in Territory
+0.5 per Marketplace
+0.3 per Court of Law
+0.2 per Training Camp
+0.4 per Forum
+0.2 per Tax office
+0.2 per Mill
For all:
+100% if same culture group
+ 50% if State religion
The intentions behind the numbers:
Citizens are the backbone of culture: they have contact with every social class and are the most (inter)activ group. They look up to nobles, copy their peers and even consider the trends of the lesser. Nobles tend to go with the tides, so once the balance tips, they will adapt en masse. Freeman despise nobility, want to leave slavery behind and look up to become citizen, but some may feel the pull of the ways of old. Slaves adapt to their nobles and freemen want nothing to do with it all, better to have them move in strata. Cultural similarities are important and religion is half of a culture.
Assimilation Speed:
How fast will the Pop be assimilated?
Base: 1 (whatever that means)
+100% if same Culture Group
+ 60% if State Religion
+ 40% if Primary Culture is Dominant Culture in Province
+20% in City
+25% in Metropolis
- 20% in Village
+25% in Nation Capital
+10% in Provincial Capital
+ 0.5% per Civ level
+ 5% per Fort level
+ 2% per Port level
+ 2% per Road
+ 0.5% per Primary Culture Pop in Territory
+ 0.1% per Primary Culture Pop in Province
- 50% if Dominant Culture is not in Culture Group
- 20% if Religion is not in State Religion
+20% if Temple of State Religion is present
+50% if Temple of State Pantheon is present
The intentions behind the numbers:
Close cultures should convert relatively easy and, as said before, religion is at least half the culture. Also Urban life makes conversion easier: old traditions can no longer be lived in an urban environment, while new ceremonies of conquering nations are probably hold primarily in populated cities.
I am sure there are ways to simplify this to get some performance, while maintaining enough of the spirit so it still feels natural and not like a gamey boardgame mechanic (siege, I am looking at you!).
Main Points:
- Assimilation is anchored on a Province level.
- Assimilation has a clear preference for same culture group, state religion Citizens in an urban territory; and interest to assimilate trickles from there.
- Citizes convert gradually, while nobles wait for the "turning point" to convert en masse; Freemen and Slaves are somewhere in between. Tribesmen are reluctant.
- Religion is a big part of Culture.
- Urban Pops assimilate earlier, same Culture Pops assimilate faster.
- Concepts of Potential Pops to Assimilate, Pop Elegibility and Assimilation Speed are all important and offer new paths for Techs, Laws, Budgets, Omens, Relics, etc.
- Buildings shall be reworked to offer synergies for aforementioned modifiers.
I was wondering what you and others thought about Rome's aristocracy becoming increasingly Greek speaking and using Greek culture in the late Republic and how this could be implemented in the game. Could Graeco-Roman be a melting pot culture for your nobles, which you could adopt giving a buff to optimates and a malus to polulares support?
Also a a historical question for more learned people, when does gallo-roman and hispano-roman start to emerge. Are they more natives that are romanised, or roman settlers that take on some native trappings? And how would people like them represented in game
In terms of Gallo-Romans - there is not 1 easy answer. Extensive Romanization (which itself is a problematic term, because the Roman became very Hellenized as well, so is it really Romanization that is happening, or Hellenization, or something new altogether?) might have formed pretty early amongst Gaulish elites in areas like Aemilia, the Ager Gallicus, and Narbonensis. But on the flipside, other parts of Cisalpine Gaul suggest a lot less Romanization and even new local (Cisalpine Gaulish?) developments.
But thats elites, who tend to assimilate quicker related to their status or even adopt as you say, dual identities (sometimes including two names, to be used in different contexts). How "Romanized" or possibly "Gallo-Roman" those of lower social status were is even harder to determine. If you read primary sources and align those to material culture (with all the caveats and problems associated with that), I'd argue that there is not a need for a Gallo-Roman or Hispano-Roman culture at all, because then you're going to have to add such a boatload of syncretized cultures the map becomes a mess and they have defeated their purpose altogether.
In the past others and I have suggested various forms of a totally new system of Cultural Influence that could get rid of many of the bad and outdated elements of the Culture/Assimilation system. And give us a lot more gradual systems without having these super unrealistic levels of assimilation happening now.
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I think this is a really good summary. Really hits the nail on the head for me of why the way governor loyalty works feels unsatisfying at the moment and provides some good suggestions on how to fix it.
I also honestly think just adding a big scaling distance-to-capital provincial/governor loyalty hit would by itself solve a lot of the game's problems tbh.
Other suggestions in the thread about tweaks to assimilation sound very sensible too.
Ehh, I think that one's fairly simple to solve. Just have them keep their primary culture & the secondary culture flips back and forth. Iberian gets conquered by Carthage, becomes Punic-Iberian, gets conquered by Rome, flips to Italo-Iberian, goes independent, flips back to Iberian, etc.
Actually, just occurred to me, one way to do it might be to just detach Culture Group from Culture? So each Pop has assigned a Culture & a Culture Group, but there's no necessary link between the two and the Culture Group can easily flip back and forth depending on assimilation.
But also, re the wider points about the assimilation/integration model being unhistorical - i think the potential solutions are actually just quite simple. You just remove or massively nerf generic assimilation, and give assimilation as a big bonus to integrated cultures - with the trade-off of reduced happiness for primary/other integrated cultures. Which as far as I understand basically models what happened historically and the tensions underlying things like Rome's Social War. It also helps address the issue that assimilation should be fastest amongst elites since it ties it to citizenship status.
These also would be very straightforward solutions to solve a lot of the most immediate problems without a lot of drawbacks, I think.
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This is a great point. My issue is that the game SHOULD make some differentiation between, as you said, "Romans who have lived in the city of Rome since the time of the Monarchy and people in Gaul who recently learned Latin and exchanged their trousers for togas".
If there was a way of creating some "melting pot cultures", we could have romano-gallic, romano-iberian and more.
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