Assimilation as separated thing

[Archael90]

Assimilation should be a separated tab in species rights menu rather than option of citizenship.
In assimilation tab we should be able to choose assimilation type with various modifers, from trascendance which is just unconvinient and gives -20% to happiness, to hiveminding which drops happiness to 0% and provide rebels.
At the moment assimilation is one of citizen rights, meaning that species that is full citizens in xenophile egalitarian empire now became something like slaves because have to be forcely assimilated, even if this is some kind of learning or training.
Despite the fact that using assimilation as default rights replace default living standard and if i want all my species have utopian abundance, i have to put it manually to all already assimilated species.

 

[Mastikator]

With the hopes that a developer finds this thread somehow I'm posting this as an answer to "how to" and "why". This is an aspect of the game that greatly needs both a RP and a game mechanical upgrade. The way it's implemented today is weird, WEIRD.

 

[Vastet]

I think it's fine as is. A species that assimilates isn't going to make it optional. There are no examples of optional assimilatation in history, and from a political perspective it is unworkable. Even if you're egalitarian. If you're egalitarian, and you are wholly against genocide, but you find yourself responsible for a group of people who are fanatical purifiers, unless you want to end up in the same quagmire as Israel has been in for decades, you're going to assimilate those fanatical purifiers and teach them the benefits of egalitarianism. Because otherwise, they'll assimilate you. Or worse, you'll end up with a no solution conflict that never ends.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I think it's fine as is. A species that assimilates isn't going to make it optional. There are no examples of optional assimilatation in history, and from a political perspective it is unworkable. Even if you're egalitarian. If you're egalitarian, and you are wholly against genocide, but you find yourself responsible for a group of people who are fanatical purifiers, unless you want to end up in the same quagmire as Israel has been in for decades, you're going to assimilate those fanatical purifiers and teach them the benefits of egalitarianism. Because otherwise, they'll assimilate you. Or worse, you'll end up with a no solution conflict that never ends.

That's a matter of Ethics change, not Assimilation. Assimilation represents turning people into cyborgs/psionically ascending them/turning them into hiveminded POPs or removing their hivemind link.

Completely different subject.

 

[Vastet]

No it is not. how exactly is a hive mind, organic or synthetic, going to handle a bunch of individuals other than by assimilation or extermination? How is a theocratic government going to stay theocratic without subverting opposing position? I don't think you've thought this through. If you have a culture that is divided by physics then you have 2 cultures in conflict for dominance.

 

[Mastikator]

No it is not. how exactly is a hive mind, organic or synthetic, going to handle a bunch of individuals other than by assimilation or extermination? How is a theocratic government going to stay theocratic without subverting opposing position? I don't think you've thought this through. If you have a culture that is divided by physics then you have 2 cultures in conflict for dominance.

We're talking about replacing arms and legs with machine parts, you're talking about joining a state religion (or no religion). Those are VERY different things. The thing we're talking about hasn't happened in history because cyborgs, synthetic people and psionic people have never existed in history nor in the present. There is no historical precedent for this question at all, it's an entirely sci-fi question.

In the synth option which by far is the most severe, an individual person goes to a robot factory and a robot with that person's individuality comes back. Can you even imagine how BIG that is?

Imagine for a second this scenario: an alien force has taken over Earth, life goes on as per normal for most people. One day your spouse disappears and the next day A ROBOT SHOWS UP AT YOUR DOOR CLAIMING TO BE YOUR SPOUSE.

There are two ways to interpret this:

• They are murdering us and replacing us with robots
• They are uploading our minds into a computer inside a robot

Not only that but everyone MUST undergo the change. This from an empire that claims to be egalitarian and wants to protect your rights and dignity.

This is one of the most contradictory and weird features we have in the game, it literally makes no sense from an RP perspective OR from a game mechanical perspective.

 

[Vastet]

I referred to both in case you'd care to actually read what I said. So no, they aren't different at all.

It isn't big at all. Neurons are neurons, chemicals are chemicals. If a brain can be uploaded into a computer, that does not necessitate anything more than it having changed location.

You clearly haven't put any thought whatsoever into how an assimilation process would work, either in reality or how it is actually shown in game. All pops being assimilated are not sitting at home waiting to be scared when a robot wife shows up, they are all in assimilation chambers being assimilated.

 

[Mastikator]

I referred to both in case you'd care to actually read what I said. So no, they aren't different at all.

It isn't big at all. Neurons are neurons, chemicals are chemicals. If a brain can be uploaded into a computer, that does not necessitate anything more than it having changed location.

You clearly haven't put any thought whatsoever into how an assimilation process would work, either in reality or how it is actually shown in game. All pops being assimilated are not sitting at home waiting to be scared when a robot wife shows up, they are all in assimilation chambers being assimilated.

You're talking about factions and ethics, that's not what this topic is about.

 

[Vastet]

You're talking about factions and ethics, that's not what this topic is about.

Don't tell me what I'm talking about when you clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Mastikator]

Don't tell me what I'm talking about when you clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

You're talking about Israel and egalitarianism, that's politics, ethos and factions. Israel is not trying to add cybernetic eyeballs to palestinians or awaken the psychic powers within their minds.

Here are your words: "There are no examples of optional assimilatation in history "

There is no examples of cyborgs and psychics in history either. It doesn't exist. You're not talking about what the OP is talking about.

 

[Ivashanko]

I think it's fine as is. A species that assimilates isn't going to make it optional. There are no examples of optional assimilatation in history, and from a political perspective it is unworkable. Even if you're egalitarian. If you're egalitarian, and you are wholly against genocide, but you find yourself responsible for a group of people who are fanatical purifiers, unless you want to end up in the same quagmire as Israel has been in for decades, you're going to assimilate those fanatical purifiers and teach them the benefits of egalitarianism. Because otherwise, they'll assimilate you. Or worse, you'll end up with a no solution conflict that never ends.

There are literally countless examples of 'optional assimilation' in history. Literally countless, one for every family who moved to another country and decided to try and become one with the locals rather than stay apart from them. Furthermore, most of the non-ethnocentric non-religio-centric world today is partly built on the foundation of 'optional assimilation'. It is often a flawed foundation, but it is there. If you ever lived in an entho/religio-centric country you will readily and instantly see the difference.

I suspect you aren't talking about that sort of assimilation, but even larger ethnic and cultural communities have optionally assimilated into larger groups countless times. They had plenty of incentives to do so, of course, but 'having incentives' is not the same thing as 'having no option except to assimilate'.

 

[Archael90]

@Vastet
About history of assimilation, aside things that @Ivashanko said, there was one emperor (i forhot which one, have to check, but i'm 90% sure it was Julius Cesar) that doesnt assimilate conquered lands, he in fact do nothing to them, leaving conquered provinces with their own believes and ethics, so there are history exaples of not forced assimiations.
Other thing is that this topic is not about this at all. I believes that You are refering to just one post by @Mastikator , pls try to read oppening post

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Don't tell me what I'm talking about when you clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

You're the one who made some bizarre comparison to an Egalitarian empire conquering Fanatic Purifier POPs - the changing of whose ethics would be a matter of Ethics/Factions, not Assimilation.

 

[Vastet]

There are literally countless examples of 'optional assimilation' in history. Literally countless, one for every family who moved to another country and decided to try and become one with the locals rather than stay apart from them. Furthermore, most of the non-ethnocentric non-religio-centric world today is partly built on the foundation of 'optional assimilation'. It is often a flawed foundation, but it is there. If you ever lived in an entho/religio-centric country you will readily and instantly see the difference.

I suspect you aren't talking about that sort of assimilation, but even larger ethnic and cultural communities have optionally assimilated into larger groups countless times. They had plenty of incentives to do so, of course, but 'having incentives' is not the same thing as 'having no option except to assimilate'.

No there aren't, not one. You refer to a family, this is about entire species and cultures. Never been an optional assimilation on that front, not once. There are hundreds of examples of mandatory assimilation, not one of voluntary.

You're talking about Israel and egalitarianism, that's politics, ethos and factions. Israel is not trying to add cybernetic eyeballs to palestinians or awaken the psychic powers within their minds.

Here are your words: "There are no examples of optional assimilatation in history "

There is no examples of cyborgs and psychics in history either. It doesn't exist. You're not talking about what the OP is talking about.

I'm talking about assimilation, if you don't understand what assimilation is that's your problem. And yeah there's a lot of examples of cyborgs actually, anyone with a smart phone or glasses is a cyborg by definition. Anyone with a pacemaker.

I'm done with this topic clearly noone wants a real discussion on this they just want to make things up and put words in my mouth.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I'm done with this topic clearly noone wants a real discussion on this they just want to make things up and put words in my mouth.

Just looking at this mechanically, every example you've tried to raise would be more accurately covered by the "Recently Conquered" or "Culture Shock" modifier, along with Ethics attraction and POP Ethics shifting. NONE of them map to in-game Assimilation mechanically, where POPs do NOTHING and are extremely unhappy until the process is over, at which point they undergo EXTREME physiological alterations and are elevated to the same living standards as the primary species.

 

[Ivashanko]

No there aren't, not one. You refer to a family, this is about entire species and cultures. Never been an optional assimilation on that front, not once. There are hundreds of examples of mandatory assimilation, not one of voluntary.

I'll ignore the part about 'no examples of species ever assimilating', as we have no actual data to draw any conclusions from there.

As for cultures, you are objectively wrong. Large cultural groups have fairly regularly been assimilated into larger cultural groups during times and periods where powerful governing forces simply didn't exist (and thus couldn't make assimilation mandatory). This process continues today in parts of the world where modern culture has lead to optional (as in cultural and ethnic groups could not assimilate and not be overtly persecuted for it) yet chosen assimilation in East Asia, South America, and Africa.

Good examples of this are: the non-Slavic tribes in the first Bulgarian Empire, the Hakka, the Pannonian Avars, the various ethnic groups that over time converted, assimilated and became part of the wider Arabic world, the assimilation of the Caucasus ethnic groups into the wider Persian groupings during Zoroastrians heyday, the assimilation of the sub-French, Russian, German, etc cultures by their more prestigious (and now more standardised) cultural forms, voluntary religious conversion and assimilation, ethnic Jews who moved en masse to Israel and integrated into wider Israel, cultural groups that moved to the US, created cohesive cultural communities which over the generations integrated into the wider culture, etc, etc, etc. I could name countless others.

The problem you're likely making is that you're confusing 'having positive incentives to assimilate', 'having negative incentives to not assimilate', and 'being forced to assimilate'. These are three very different things.

 

[Archael90]

@Vastet
It seems that You are not taking about game at all. Assimilation in Stellaris is a way to upgrade immigrating pops into hive, psionics or synthetics. Its not about ethic change. We can talk about this, but not on this topic, its about assimilation as game mechanic.