Assault Gun Love?

[CharlieFox]

Out of curiosity, how are SPArt variants implemented in the game? Do they have 0 org like artillery? Do they have an armor stat that gives bonus the whole division (like normal armor)? So my question boils down to is SPArt a tank with very high soft attack (direct fire) or just a mobile artillery unit that fires from behind frontline troops (indirect fire)?

The way I see it if they are basically tanks with high soft attack they are hardly an artillery unit and maybe SPArt could be renamed as AG?

 

[Gort11]

Do they have 0 org like artillery?

Artillery doesn't have 0 org.

 

[CharlieFox]

Artillery doesn't have 0 org.

It doesn't? It was said on another thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-that-artillery-takes-up-combat-width.923026/) although not by a Dev. I assumed it to be true as in the stream adding artillery lowered the average organization of the division. Has this been changed recently? Or does Artillery simply have significantly less Org than infantry but no 0 org?

 

[Zaku]

It doesn't? It was said on another thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-that-artillery-takes-up-combat-width.923026/) although not by a Dev. I assumed it to be true as in the stream adding artillery lowered the average organization of the division. Has this been changed recently? Or does Artillery simply have significantly less Org than infantry but no 0 org?

Arty has negative org.
http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Land_units

 

[BurdenedWarrior]

get ready for some hot stug on stug action, where we'll show you that length doesn't really matter

Deep battle doctrine do anything for you???

 

[208]

Tank destroyers or assault guns are really cool and there is a ton of variation in layout. But this is grand strategy so I dont really see how those differences would change the statistics of the divisions.

I do agree! The stats of the whole division are more important then the individual equipment.

I agree with the sentiment, more or less, but as I understand it the battalion/division statistics are literally the stats of all its equipment added together. If you could add, say, "12 IG/AG" to the equipment roster of an infantry battalion, then the stats of the infantry battalion (and its containing division) would automatically include it.

Maybe down the road we'll see a "battalion designer" DLC or mod that lets us customize the make-up of individual battalions like this But I suspect you'd also need to make production more fine-grained than it is at the same time to accomodate needing 3x the number of production lines to keep up with all the different equipment types, and that's likely a much more difficult project.

 

[keynes2.0]

I think some late war panzer battalions were more assault gun battalions then tank battalions but maybe I'm not remembering right.

 

[rutger9]

(because I'm pretty sure there was no such thing as an "assault gun battalion", which is why they aren't modelled in HoI4),

Stugs were specifically organized into abteilungs ,which is the german name for battalion. (and stugs were for the entirety of the war considered to be assault guns and treated as such with artillerymen uniforms instead of tanker uniforms etc)
You had independent stug battalions that were assigned to divisions and as the war carried on some divisions had them organically assigned, so if this is the argument made then it is false, now there are other argument for specific assault gun exclusion that I can understand and agree with but the argument that they weren't present in battalion formations is simply false.

 

[GundamMerc]

I think some late war panzer battalions were more assault gun battalions then tank battalions but maybe I'm not remembering right.

This is actually correct. Assault guns were easier to produce and could be used in largely the same role.

 

[208]

Stugs were specifically organized into abteilungs ,which is the german name for battalion. (and stugs were for the entirety of the war considered to be assault guns and treated as such with artillerymen uniforms instead of tanker uniforms etc)
You had independent stug battalions that were assigned to divisions and as the war carried on some divisions had them organically assigned, so if this is the argument made then it is false, now there are other argument for specific assault gun exclusion that I can understand and agree with but the argument that they weren't present in battalion formations is simply false.

StuGs being overwhelmingly TDs in game terms, whatever they were called at the time.

 

[rutger9]

Your claim is that there were no assault gun battalions IRL, this claim is factually incorrect.
Now the argument can be made that the later stug variants can be represented in a TD role and i can agree with this argument but that does not make the above claim correct.

 

[208]

Your claim is that there were no assault gun battalions IRL, this claim is factually incorrect.
Now the argument can be made that the later stug variants can be represented in a TD role and i can agree with this argument but that does not make the above claim correct.

Congratulations, you've out-pedanted me. I've removed the reference from my post.

 

[rutger9]

I am now glad, I'll continue killing myself with college assignments.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

But where they assault gun battalions or Stugs battalions? I am pretty sure assault gun battalions were rare and were assigned for units assaulting strong positions like cities or forts, while Stug battalions were quite widely used. And Stugs were often assault guns converted to tank destroyers, making them tank destroyers, not assault guns.

 

[Sic Domine]

But where they assault gun battalions or Stugs battalions? I am pretty sure assault gun battalions were rare and were assigned for units assaulting strong positions like cities or forts, while Stug battalions were quite widely used. And Stugs were often assault guns converted to tank destroyers, making them tank destroyers, not assault guns.

Stug literally means assault gun

 

[Super Izumo]

As a fan of using StuGs in whichever game offers them I don't really see a point in them becoming their own unit in HoI4 when you can use the Variant system to essentially make your own. In Hoi4 terms you could just make a SPART variant with more armor and call it a StuG. You could also make a TD variant and call it a StuG, both would be correct.

I also would like to make the Argument that the term Assault Gun is a rather open term depending on what you think an Assault Gun is regardless of how it was historically used. Basically an AG was something that pushed up with infantry in the thick of the fighting, for Germany this was a vehicle with a Large Caliber Short Barreled Gun for bunker blasting.

With an open term like Assault Gun I could very well make a TD variant that had beefed up speed (and reliability) to keep up with friendly units and outpace enemy units to push far into enemy lines, or on the flip side a SPART with more firepower and armor that may be slow but an Assault doesn't need to be fast moving if it's very effective.

#StuGLife
#AssaultGunIsAnOpenTerm

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Stug literally means assault gun

That means absolutely nothing. Pre war German tanks were called "tractors", that does not mean they were. Stug was originally assault gun, but when it got different gun, it became tank destroyer. Hence Stug is called assault gun, but it is used and treated as tank destroyer. In Hearts of Iron 4 there is no difference between Stug tank destroyer and some other tank destroyer, as there should not be.

 

[rutger9]

The stug was treated as an assault gun in all official capacity for the entire war, the crew of a stug would be considered artillerymen and the crew of a say jagdpanzer IV would be considered tankers, with the 75mm short or long barrel, the stug was always used in the capacity of an assault gun. now yes because it performed extremely well stugs were over time because of shortages of actual tanks assigned to tank divisions but even then it didn't become a tank destroyer.

I personally support the argument that the stug can be abstracted into TDs but you are with your factually incorrect historical argumentation not helping the discussion.

 

[GundamMerc]

That means absolutely nothing. Pre war German tanks were called "tractors", that does not mean they were. Stug was originally assault gun, but when it got different gun, it became tank destroyer. Hence Stug is called assault gun, but it is used and treated as tank destroyer. In Hearts of Iron 4 there is no difference between Stug tank destroyer and some other tank destroyer, as there should not be.

That would be a false comparison. The pre-war german tanks were purposefully misnamed for intelligence reasons, as they were not supposed to be building tanks in the first place as part of the Treaty of Versailles. The StuG, on the other hand was created during the war, and there was no reason to label it something other than what it was, as it wasn't meant to be a surprise game-changing weapon.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

The stug was treated as an assault gun in all official capacity for the entire war, the crew of a stug would be considered artillerymen and the crew of a say jagdpanzer IV would be considered tankers, with the 75mm short or long barrel, the stug was always used in the capacity of an assault gun. now yes because it performed extremely well stugs were over time because of shortages of actual tanks assigned to tank divisions but even then it didn't become a tank destroyer.

I personally support the argument that the stug can be abstracted into TDs but you are with your factually incorrect historical argumentation not helping the discussion.

But that is all becouse Stug was at first assault gun, and later became tank destroyer. It is like difference between Luftwaffe Infantry and Infantry, Luftwaffe infantry may have been from Luftwaffe, but they still were just like regular badly trained infantry in everything but name and uniform.
Stug 4 was classified as assault gun as well, but it was exlusivly designed and used as tank destroyer.