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Damocles

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Assassinations just did not happen on a scale worthy of being included in CK where it would just be abused, ala M:TW. There is perhaps one factual case of someone being assassinated by an outside dynasty per century if that. Most of it is 'suspected' or 'possibly'.

Including assassins in the game would be a mistake from a gameplay and historical perspective. Executions of captives could be an option if it had severe penalties.
 

khurjan

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Originally posted by Damocles
Assassinations just did not happen on a scale worthy of being included in CK where it would just be abused, ala M:TW. There is perhaps one factual case of someone being assassinated by an outside dynasty per century if that. Most of it is 'suspected' or 'possibly'.

Including assassins in the game would be a mistake from a gameplay and historical perspective. Executions of captives could be an option if it had severe penalties.

true damocles no assains is better simply cos it didnt fit into the chivalry ethics of those times and church also frowned upon it...becuase to bring in assasins is as well as bring in muslim mercenaries who fought for aragon and castile and leon lol list can go on
 

khurjan

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fatimid rule in sicily

hehe my apologies about FATIMID RULE IN SICILY I MISSED THE DATES BY COUPLE OF YRSS :) oops caps sorry

The Kalbids in Sicily


Al-Mansur was unable to pay attention towards Sicily during the revolt of Abu Yazid, where Ibn Ataf was an inefficient governor. Taking advantage of his weakness, the Byzantines stopped the payment of the tribute to the Fatimids. In the meantime, the inhabitants of Sicily also rose against Ibn Ataf, who hid himself in the old castle of Palermo. Confronted by the chaotic situation caused by the rebellious at Palermo and Agrigento in Sicily against the Fatimid amirs, al-Mansur deemed it logical and sensible to entrust Sicily's administration to those whose fidelity was proven beyond doubt, and who, moreover, could maintain a neutral stand, therefore, al-Mansur appointed Hasan bin Ali al-Kalbi as the governor of Sicily in 336/946.

Hasan bin Ali al-Kalbi belonged to an influential Kalbid family, stemming from the tribe of Kalab bin Wabara of Banu Abil Hussain. Under the Aghlabids rule, the Kalabid family began to decline from public notice, but they became the main prop and stay during the Fatimids period, and swiftly found a milieu favourable to their rise, and became a governing element of Muslim Sicily by the middle of the 4th/10th century. Ali bin Ali al-Kalbi, one of the first dynasts of the family and son-in-law of Salim bin Abi Rashid, the then Fatimid governor of Sicily, from 305/917 to 325/936, died at the siege of Agrigento in 326/938. His son Hasan bin Ali al-Kalbi, who had distinguished himself in the campaigns waged by Imam al-Qaim and Imam al-Mansur against Abu Yazid, was the first of a succession of Kalbid governors in Sicily, a kind of hereditary emirate under the Fatimids which lasted until the middle of 5th/11th century.

In Sicily, Hasan bin Ali al-Kalbi finished the internal uprisings and restored peace. He also solidified his army, forcing the Byzantine emperor to resume the payment of the tribute to the Fatimids. On al-Mansur's death in 341/952, Hasan bin Ali returned to Mansuria, leaving behind the government of the island in the hands of his son, Ahmad bin Hasan (342-358/953-969), the second Kalbid governor of Sicily.

The new Fatimid policy led to the origination of the semi-independent dynasty of the Kalbids, which ruled over Sicily for almost a century on behalf of the Fatimids, having considerable autonomy. Hasan, called al-Samsan (431-445/1040-1053) was the last Kalbid governor of Sicily. The Norman Count Roger captured Messina in 1060, and Palermo, the capital of the island fell to them in 1072. The Normans also occupied Syracuse in 1085 and by 1091 the whole of the island came to the possession of the Normans. That was the end of the Muslim rule in Sicily.

The Kalbid era was one of the most prosperous periods in the history of Muslim Sicily. The island developed vital trade and played an important role in the transmission of Islamic culture into Europe. In Sicily, the schools, colleges, mosques and hospitals were also built, the agriculture was promoted and the new industries were set up. It is interesting to note that the medical institution of Palermo was far better than that of Baghdad and Cordova. According to "Encyclopaedia of World Art" (Rome, 1958, 12th vol., p. 459), "The oldest examples of silk weaving are from southern Italy, particularly Sicily, where the first looms were probably put into operation by the Saracens in the 9th century."

The Fatimid art had certainly influenced the Italians through Sicily, and left behind many traces. A number of important pieces of gold and silver works, scattered in south Italy belonged to the Fatimids. The products of this workshop are characterized by a special technique of filigree work arranged in spirals or in vermiculated designs and by simply encased ornamented enamels in Fatimid style. According to "Encyclopaedia of World Art" (Rome, 1958, 12th vol., p. 459), "The influence of Fatimid art is seen in the two lions, each devouring a camel, that entirely cover the mantle of Roger II (1095-1154) almost as if it were half of an enormous orb. The lions are separated by a very stylized palmette. Also Fatimids are the palmettes decorating the edges of the sleeves and the hem of the dalmatic. To this were added the clearly Islamic motif of ornamental scripts - in this case, Naskhi letters, which flow elegantly to form a border."

It may be noted that the magnetic instrument indicating the direction was known as qutb-numa (mariner compass), which came to be used by the navigators of the Mediterranean Sea, from Sicily to Alexandria for the first time. Idrisi (494-548/1100-1154), who compiled his geographical treatise in Sicily, however, is reported to have made an earliest description of the mariner compass. The Egyptians called it samia, because their terms were separate from those of the navigators of the high sea. It is beyond doubt that the Europeans were indebted to the Muslims for the mariner compass, which, they knew most probably after 5th century.
 

khurjan

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a small recap sorry

ITALY

Sicily was subjected to raids from Muslims in Egypt between 652-70 and even Syracuse, the capital, was laid under tribute but it owed allegiance to the Roman Empire till 826. It was conquered by Moors from North Africa. In 962, the Island was completely Muslim. Their dominance remained upto 1060.

Muslims from Sicily used to attack Calabria, Compania, Brantia, Locania and Appolia in South Italy and occupied them temporarily. If there had been any united leadership of Muslim forces there can be little doubt that the whole of Italy would have fallen to them. But unfortunately the Amirs of Sicily insisted upon their own independence while the Moors had severed connection with Caliphate of Baghdad and this mutual bickering thwarted the establishment of Muslim rule over the whole of the Italy.

SARDINIA

The first expedition to Sardinia was sent in 707 AD which conquered it. The second was sent by Musa in 712. During the reign of Abdur-Rahman, in 773, Muslims exposed it to attacks. In 808 Spanish Muslims attacked Sardinia but were defeated. In 809, African Muslims attacked and in 820 a Muslim fleet attacked it.

Muslims were masters of Sardinia in about 970. Fatimide Muiz (953-975) passed through Sardinia on his way to new territories most probably in France, Italy and Switzerland. He stayed there for one year. The most famous Amir of Sardinia was Abdul Hasan Al-Mujahid in 1016. He came from Balearic Islands. The Island Sardinia remained under Muslim Rule for about 212 years.
 

Demetrios

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Originally posted by Drakken
Some potential historical cases :

- Jean sans peur, duke of Burgundy
- Louix X le Hutin, king of France (suspected-see the story of the dead dog)
- Edward II, king of England (after his abdication)
- All Templars in France except two, by Philippe IV le Bel, by use of legal ways and burning at the stake.
- Marguerite of Burgundy, first wife of Louis X, allegedly strangled in Chateau-Gaillard.
- Possibly Mahaut of Artois, and also her daughter Jeanne, Queen dowager and widow of Philippe V, King of France, a month later. Both would have been poisoned. They were both direct rivals of the infamous Robert III of Artois, claimant to the county of Artois, which was Mahaut's by "discutable" ways.

Don't forget William II and (possibly) Ricahard II of England.

An interesting question - where does one draw the line between assassination, summary execution, and simple murder? There was plenty of the latter two during the CK period, and presumably the game should allow you to execute a rebelious noble should you capture him. Many cases are near the line between assassination and murder (was Edward II assassinated or murdered?). Ordering an assassination I suppose would be similar to this, but cost more (for hiring the assassins) and potentially result in disatrous concequences.
 

Idiotboy

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Originally posted by Demetrios

Ordering an assassination I suppose would be similar to this, but cost more (for hiring the assassins) and potentially result in disatrous concequences.

Yes that´s exactly how I would like it. It would fit well with historic matters and keep abuse away since assassination wouldn´t be feasible unless extreme circumstances.
 

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Outside the time period, but Edward V and his brother where probally murdered. I think Murder should be included, under extreme cercumstances, also the AI nobles at different courts should be able to try and murder with extereme conuquinces(sp?) if found out. But no crazy ninjas welding huge swords.
 

unmerged(485)

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Originally posted by Demetrios


Don't forget William II and (possibly) Ricahard II of England.

..........

Gettin kinda far afield with "maybe"s.

After asking who else, I realized that you are right - it is a matter of definition of assassination vs. murder.

However the Assassins (notice the capital "A" folks) were an important sect in the first half of the CK period and should definitely appear in the game.:)

How they come to appear in the game was the original question.:)
 

khurjan

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guys if we bent on including assains or murders or whatever cant we also decide what negative effects would that have...i think easiest way to include assassination i think is to give so called traits to characters so it either makes the player easier to use murder as political tool or harder as i.e character been pious so wont deal with assasins and etc that will also make sue that if a human player is playing for example louise the pious king of france he wont be inclined to use them
 

Drakken

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Originally posted by Demetrios

An interesting question - where does one draw the line between assassination, summary execution, and simple murder?

Assassination : Murder of an individual for political reason, usually by a third peer.

Summary execution : Murder of a individual upon the direct instructions of a source of power.

Murder : By yourself, usually for trivial, passionate or no reasons at all.

Drakken
 

Idiotboy

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Originally posted by Drakken


Assassination : Murder of an individual for political reason, usually by a third peer.

That is a pretty big definition no?

Of course I suppose there could be some "kill all highborn" as a battle option if one was afraid to use it. I mean if somebody "happened" to die in battle that would be okey right?
 

Demetrios

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Originally posted by Drakken


Assassination : Murder of an individual for political reason, usually by a third peer.

Summary execution : Murder of a individual upon the direct instructions of a source of power.

Murder : By yourself, usually for trivial, passionate or no reasons at all.

Drakken

Still some what hazy. Was Edward II assassinated, executed, or murdered?

Political killings should definitely be in the game - perhaps at three levels: execution, murder, and assassination, each with an increasing risk to lose major piety and prestiege. The last should, as I have stated above, also cost a lot and run the risk of failure
 

Drakken

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Executed implies an official sanction, while murdered does not.

Edward II has been assassinated. He was not sentenced to death officially but killed in secret by his keepers on the instructions of Mortimer and (maybe) Queen Isabelle.

If it would have been an execution there would have been ne reason to hide it from the masses.

Drakken
 

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Originally posted by Drakken
Executed implies an official sanction, while murdered does not.

Edward II has been assassinated. He was not sentenced to death officially but killed in secret by his keepers on the instructions of Mortimer and (maybe) Queen Isabelle.

If it would have been an execution there would have been ne reason to hide it from the masses.

Drakken

But Edward II had no political power when he was killed. Assassination implies killing someone who has politcal power. Most books I have read call the deaths of Edward II, Richard II (maybe), Henry VI, and Edward V murders (as they were killed while out of power and such deaths ween't officially sanctioned executions), while the same books call the killing of Duke Jean of Burgundy an assassination (as he was killed when quite definietly in power). Moreover, William II is said to have been the only English monarch to be assassinated in most books on English royalty I have read, even though several other monarchs met untimely ends at the hands of their fellow man wihtout being official executions (Edward II, Henry VI, and Edward V at the least; Richard II and George V maybe - though the latter case probably only hastened the end by a few hours; Richard III doesn't count since he died in battle).
 

Drakken

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Edward II had no power anymore, yet Roger Mortimer suspected that many noblemen would use Edward II as a token for a revolt against Edward III's regency - and his - rule. Many despised his ruthless rule and his perversed ways - emotional blackmail - to puppet Isabelle. His very survival was a menace to his power on Edward III via Queen Isabelle as Regent. Isn't it the reason also why the Earl of Kent, Edward III's uncle, was executed, because he thought that Edward II was still alive and was ready to set him free?

Assassinating dethroned Kings was done because they remain a powerful rally for opposition. They thought noblemen wouldn't hesitate to rebel in his name, to put it back on his throne and chase away or kill the usurpers' vassals. So even with no powers, former Kings were a dangerous liability. Lady Jane Grey and the Jacobites are the last best examples in England of these kind of use of former Monarchs to rebel and wage civil war to steal back political power.

Jean sans Peur was ambushed and killed by the Duke of Orléans' merceraries.

George V was assassinated? :eek:

Drakken
 

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Originally posted by Drakken


George V was assassinated? :eek:

Yep, according the story, as George V lay dying, his doctor administered a lethal dose of some drugs so that his death could be first reported in the respectable morning newspapers instead of the evening tabloids...
 

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That I didn't know. :(

As for Edward V and his younger brother, there is no proof that they were murdered at Richard's orders.

Except their body, is there any proof that they were killed?

Drakken
 

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Originally posted by Drakken

As for Edward V and his younger brother, there is no proof that they were murdered at Richard's orders.

Except their body, is there any proof that they were killed?


Proof in the legal sense, no. But the evidence of historical sources makes it pretty clear he did. Read Allison Weir's The Princes in the Tower or Desmond Seward's Richard III for some damning arguments by historians using original sources which completely undermine the theories of the revisionists who have attempted to clear Richard III. Before reading them, I had a the romantic notion that perhaps Richard III was framed by later propganda; after reading them there is no doubt in my mind that he was totally responsible for their demise...
 

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I've seen assassination in M:TW, and it is handled very similarly to how it is being suggested here. Trust me, it is a disaster. The AI hires hundreds of ninja-esque assassins to go on kamikaze attacks, even with say, a 7 percent chance of success with little or no consequences.

The idea, even of assassins, being a viable gameplay feature in any somewhat serious attempt to recreate the period is painful. Summary executions were plentiful , sure, but there just wasn't a whole lot of Dynasty Leader A, hiring sword-wielding Jim to go assassinate Dynasty Leader B. Most of this sort of stuff was either handled on the fringe, or in the lower echelons. It just didn't take place at the level of 'command' and 'influence' so to speak, that CK places you at.

Executions however...Are a vastly different matter.