Assassins

[unmerged(485)]

We have talked about the possibility of being able to assissinate a leader. But not how the Assassins would come into being. Will it be hard coded? Will it be an event triggered by some happenings in the Muslim world?

Since it won't be exactly like the creation of monastic/military orders in the Christian world will it just happen (like the variability of the Lutheran movement in EU - it will happen but the date is not set in stone) like the onslaught of the Mongols will happen? (O.K. we don't know the detail of the Mongol invasions but we are pretty sure it will happen at a semi-historical time.)

Any thoughts?

Sergei feel free to give us your opinion.

EDIT: Oops forgot to add - perhaps the Assassins will come about just like any other Christian heretical sect. Don't know how that is going to happen though.

 

[HVC]

I’m afraid of assassination in this game, mainly because the AI might abuse it (as might a Human player). I can see it now, “Half of Europe’s Royal family has succumb to a “mysterious” disease, Emperor What’sHisName will succeed and become king of a unified Europe”.

 

[Idiotboy]

Indeed. That´s why I advocate that the penalties of assasination should be severe enough that it will be considered as a last measure of desperation.

 

[unmerged(703)]

Hmmm....

..... since the game is based a lot on events, should not assassinations also be driven by events. You choose based on the consequnences.....

 

[Lethke]

Re: Hmmm....

Originally posted by bmolsson
..... since the game is based a lot on events, should not assassinations also be driven by events. You choose based on the consequnences.....

But in that case there is no real use to it. You'd have to wait for the right event to pop up in order to asassinate the right duke.
it's no use for me if an event pops up which offers me the chance to kill my allie.


Or do you mean that an asasination event pops up and i can choose from a list who is to be targetted?

 

[Damocles]

Including assassination in CK would be very ahistorical, unless you were only allowed to assassinate those in your own 'dynasty' so to speak.

There is not enough historical instances of actual planned assassination to even make it plausible as an inclusion. Of course, it was accused plenty of time, but was almost inevitably, not the cause.

The Hashishin (sp.) should not be pointed to as proof that assassins should be in the game. They have just about nothing to do with any Christian dynasty, and didn't even have *that* much influence over the Muslim rulers either, most of which was fantasy rather than fact.

 

[Guinnessmonkey]

There's a big difference between using The Assasins and just having someone knocked off. The latter should be possible. There are lots of accounts of a rival to the throne who was "accidentally" killed while hunting or whatnot. This doesn't mean you should be able to hire ninjas, though.

If it's possible it's probably better to limit assasination targets to vassals and such.

Even then it should be almost impossible to pull off completely successfully. People will know who did it.

Most of the times it should be seen in game it should be the nobility (including family members) murdering each other without any orders from on high. I suppose that would mean some kind of random event.

Wow. Now I'm not sure what side I'm arguing anymore.

 

[gweinel]

Although...

Although I am sure that Byzantines had assassinate a king in the era of the game. But I can't remember who king was and when...
Maybe one of our history experts here know this

 

[Norgesvenn]

Assassinating your vassals could be an option, like the missionary in EU II. The probability of success would be low, and if you fail... well, the vassal isn't going to think you're flavour of the month.

The Assassins were more of a religious sect than a purely military order, weren't they? I read about how they assassinated Caliphs and other opponents...

 

[unmerged(485)]

The point is not the player or Christian AI assaissinating others. The Nizari Ismailis (Assassins) will not be playable but should be a part of the game - they were a pretty big part of the Muslim world at the time.

AFAIK they only assassinated three Christian rulers but they did away with quite a few Muslim leaders.
And they were a militant sect.

 

[Damocles]

Assassination and murder *could* be available and done within your own dynastyy or country, either among your vassals, or your vassals going for you, but cross dynasty assassinations were just about unheard of.

The Middle East Assassins sect is pretty silly, and I don't think deserving to even be a gameplay feature, because it had a rather microscopic impact in the grand scheme of the geopolitical landscape.

 

[gweinel]

well

they can be in as random events.

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Damocles
Assassination and murder *could* be available and done within your own dynastyy or country, either among your vassals, or your vassals going for you, but cross dynasty assassinations were just about unheard of.

The Middle East Assassins sect is pretty silly, and I don't think deserving to even be a gameplay feature, because it had a rather microscopic impact in the grand scheme of the geopolitical landscape.

I agree on the fact that the assasin sect has little in common with the practise itself beside the name. I would say that the problem is that the ones we will be able to play are the least likely to use assasination as a means of use. So I would think that the feature will be unavaliable or perhaps only useful if one pay a less scrupulus nation to do it. One of the merchant states for example.

 

[Damocles]

Merchant states were not particularly fond of assassination either...Now, assassinating people in their own merchant states, well, they were not too adverse to that.

The only use I see assassination having in the game, is a kind of random event thing that happens against you, from within your own dynasty. Not even assassination really. Just murder.

 

[khurjan]

well i dont see the sense to include assain sect when no muslim kingdom etc will be playable including the spainish muslim or moroccan kingdoms which were involved in europe not to meantion fatimids rulling sicily and quite a bit of overrule in southern italy...this game is interesting to play from christian kingdom view but i feel is pretty unbalanced

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by khurjan
well i dont see the sense to include assain sect when no muslim kingdom etc will be playable including the spainish muslim or moroccan kingdoms which were involved in europe not to meantion fatimids rulling sicily and quite a bit of overrule in southern italy...this game is interesting to play from christian kingdom view but i feel is pretty unbalanced

The Cathars are unplayable too I would imagine - but they will probably be in the game in some form. The Albigensian crusade only lasted 20 or so years - the Assassins lasted 150+ years and were a thorn in the side (and sometimes allies) of the Christian crusaders, the Ayyubids, Fatimids, Seljuks and Abbasids.

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by khurjan
well i dont see the sense to include assain sect when no muslim kingdom etc will be playable including the spainish muslim or moroccan kingdoms which were involved in europe not to meantion fatimids rulling sicily and quite a bit of overrule in southern italy...this game is interesting to play from christian kingdom view but i feel is pretty unbalanced

The Fatimids didn't rule Sicily in this period - the Zirids did through three subordinate Emirs at Enna, Trapani, and Syracuse. No Muslim had ever had political power on mainland Italy other than the Emirs of Bari for a few decades in the 9th Century...

As for assassinations - sure you should be able to assassinate nobles; it happened fairly often. However, there shoud be fairly high percentages in both failure and detection, meaning that you will likely lose a lot of loyalty among your vassals and prestige/piety for resorting to such a despicable act...

As for the Nizari/Assassin sect, they should be in the game as well - as not including them would be historically inaccurate - but their main impact would probably be for the player to periodically see a notice saying that one of his Muslim opponents/rivals has been assassinated. Only very periodically should they off a Christian rulers - the Nizaris so hated the Sunnis that their Syrian cells were known to ally with the Christians against their common enemy...

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Demetrios


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As for the Nizari/Assassin sect, they should be in the game as well - as not including them would be historically inaccurate - but their main impact would probably be for the player to periodically see a notice saying that one of his Muslim opponents/rivals has been assassinated. Only very periodically should they off a Christian rulers - the Nizaris so hated the Sunnis that their Syrian cells were known to ally with the Christians against their common enemy...

Not only that but they paid tribute to the Templars after they lost a battle to them (Can't remember when it was though) and later they also paid some tribute to the Hospitalers.

They also held somewhere around a dozen castles in the Syrian mountains or thereabout.

So while their impact might not be directly overwhelming they certainly figured prominently in the political/religious arena in the middle east.

Besides whose skulls would the Mongols pile up if there were no Assassins.

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Demetrios


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As for assassinations - sure you should be able to assassinate nobles; it happened fairly often. However, there shoud be fairly high percentages in both failure and detection, meaning that you will likely lose a lot of loyalty among your vassals and prestige/piety for resorting to such a despicable act...

......

But were these assinations just minor nobles? Except for the middle east and the Byzantine hodgepodge. were there many Latin Christian rulers assinated during the CK period?

Tired as I am right now I imagine there were a few Scandinavian ones, the Duke of Burgundy in 1419 comes to mind and a couple of guys who were fighting over being the Holy Roman Emperor (that may be outside of CK time period though). WHo else?

 

[Drakken]

Some potential historical cases :

- Jean sans peur, duke of Burgundy
- Louix X le Hutin, king of France (suspected-see the story of the dead dog)
- Edward II, king of England (after his abdication)
- All Templars in France except two, by Philippe IV le Bel, by use of legal ways and burning at the stake.
- Marguerite of Burgundy, first wife of Louis X, allegedly strangled in Chateau-Gaillard.
- Possibly Mahaut of Artois, and also her daughter Jeanne, Queen dowager and widow of Philippe V, King of France, a month later. Both would have been poisoned. They were both direct rivals of the infamous Robert III of Artois, claimant to the county of Artois, which was Mahaut's by "discutable" ways.

There aren't that many cases of noble assassinations, but it could happen. But, they were usually made when the victims were in a state of utter weakness or helplessness, not by some ninja-type assassins. Louis X was sickle and weak, Edward II and Marguerite were imprisoned and at the mercy of the keepers, Jean sans peur was ambushed, and so forth. Also, they were not done by external powers, but from the own ranks of vassals, family and "friendly" rivals at the Court. Of course, they were considered a high felony. So, any noble who commited such a villainy upon and legal noble could be certain that he would be stripped of his titles and privileges before being killed, if caught. Thus any successful murder would be very arranged for cover-up, under either sickness or prison conditions.

Drakken