Collectvist still rebel unless you have regulated slavery which defeats the purpose of last slavery type.
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Asimov: Three Laws of Slavery (And how it wasn't nerfed)
- Thread starter Tukuro
- Start date
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@Tukuro
Am I missing something? In your build you've said "Fanatic Militarist & Xenophobia, or Militarist & Fanatic Xenophobia" and now you're mentioning collectivist. Was trying your build vs AI and it wasn't going so well managing new slaves. Also -16% happiness from xeno slaves on main pops (with Fanatic Militarist & Xenophobia) hurts a lot. Could you please revise your build to add updates and more details? Thanks.
Cheers.
Am I missing something? In your build you've said "Fanatic Militarist & Xenophobia, or Militarist & Fanatic Xenophobia" and now you're mentioning collectivist. Was trying your build vs AI and it wasn't going so well managing new slaves. Also -16% happiness from xeno slaves on main pops (with Fanatic Militarist & Xenophobia) hurts a lot. Could you please revise your build to add updates and more details? Thanks.
Cheers.
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he probably meant from a species he conquered.
anyways @Tukuro:
Whats your priority on early physics tech? And what do you think about the newly introduced energy surplus bonuses for evasion and damage? Are you enslaving all of your main pops? if yes, is the loss of energy an issue?
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You find a fanatic collectivist player/AI, then resettle them in place of the most uppity populations. If you find a planet full of fanatic pacifist xenophobes you might just want to purge them and resettle it with more docile pops.
Also, I pretty much never colonise during slave rush runs, except if I absolutely have to because I hit the sector limit and need to connect some sectors.
Some advise:
- Make sure you get regulated slavery ASAP
- Fanatic collectivist empires should be one of your priorities as they will be less uppity about being enslaved and having slavery enabled (even more so if they are fanatic collectivist + militarist)
- If your slaves are still malcontent and you think your very strong defense armies can't take them on (See Tiaexz's post about how wrong this can go), purge them (or at least most of them) and resettle them with docile slaves.
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Shields, followed by solar panels. I've never actually managed to unlock computers or energy torpedos. I just salvage everything I come across.
Might also be because I focus mostly on engineering research, unless I get high-end lasers, in which case I switch my focus.
EDIT: I find the energy surplus bonuses to be most ineffective in terms of cost-benefit. I also do not enslave my main pops.
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Mhh wouldnt something like Fanatic collectivist/Militarist with Military Dictatorship give you an even better earlygame? You gain about 8 years worth of slave mineral bonus.
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With Military junta I get lower upkeep, lvl 2 admirals, the ability to have a leader agenda and switch rulers. I considered it, but in terms of pure minerals it makes little difference.
I also either lose out on fanatic xenophobia (extra influence to cycle leaders) or fanatic militarism (10% weapon bonus, much more frequent weapon cards, war happiness).
I get a 20% bonus to minerals on my homeworld, which while seemingly substantial only really amount to ~4 extra corvettes after 7-8 years. And the ability to have agendas (effectively a third ruler trait) or select your ruler is too good to pass up.
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Revisionist of what.. Earth history? I find your claim that slave revolts were never a threat to be highly debatable, but that point is moot because historical comparisons don't fly here. There is simply no precedent concerning the enslavement of an entire world with a populations in the billions to compare with. I believe that it's a certainty that an enslaved race would revolt against their alien overlords at the first opportunity.
What do you propose instead of slave revolts? The passive slave zombies we had before?
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The game on normal (easy) difficulty is stupid, as you mentioned, conquest is everything. That's why I only play on insane with my friends, rushing people isn't possible anymore, and suddenly it's a challenging game.
I guess the solution to early rushes would be to increase the base army on planets to 4-5 def. armies, which btw should be stronger then off. armies.
Next AI empires should not surrender their homeworlds without a successfull ground invasion or insane bombardment losses.
About xeno slavery.
It should not be possible to enslave all or most of the pops without any reason for them to stay slaves.
They should need overseers(non enslaved pops) or stationed armies(not the free troops), until they have been integrated like normal pops after conquest.
Next AI empires should not surrender their homeworlds without a successfull ground invasion or insane bombardment losses.
About xeno slavery.
It should not be possible to enslave all or most of the pops without any reason for them to stay slaves.
They should need overseers(non enslaved pops) or stationed armies(not the free troops), until they have been integrated like normal pops after conquest.
I dunno about early slave rush or other game tactics that are\aren't overpowered right now. But i know one thing for sure. For fanatic collectivists salves to be unhappy by their default status is just wrong. It break the whole definition of collectivists. As people already wrote they need additional slave "status". "Indifferent" or something. And playstyles "enslave everyone in sight" must be dealt in some other way, not by nerfing slave POP for ethics that are designed around them.
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On the slavery note - after my first slaver playthrough in asimov, i think that slavery can be managed and is still comparatively strong. The price in time spent microing is not worth it for me though. Rushing on the other hand is still strong as ever, especially if you have a neighbour with compatible pops, or planet type - you can just purge and recolonize, those buildings are worth bazzilions of minerals. I might just try non-slaver rush build based on eco-adaptive pops.
Our progeny shall multiply in the ruins of your homeworlds!
In my opinion current state of slavery would be okay IF they add some additional speed bump against rushing a neighbour
Our progeny shall multiply in the ruins of your homeworlds!
In my opinion current state of slavery would be okay IF they add some additional speed bump against rushing a neighbour
This. So much this. Fanatic collectivist should just accept their lot in life. (For comparison MOO2s despotic feudalism pops immediately turned loyal after the planet was captured, cuz they were just serfs who didnt give a damn)
So, by resettle primary pop, do you mean enslave everyone, deny slave breeding, and let your more favorable same-ethos pop fill the ranks of the planet?
But not with only advanced AIs
And I am not saying its never possible, you might find a rushable AI here and there but you cant build your game on that.
What about only increasing it when the planet is attacked by slavers/purgers.
It would sort of make sense that the military then recieves more volunteers.
According to the ingame tooltip fanatic militarist doesnt get bonus war happiness over normal militarist. Not sure if its wrong tho. So ill leave that as it is for now.
As you will notice, having not seen you play your style, i make a few assumptions here. Feel free to tell me if they happen to be unreasonable.
Lower Upkeep: With MD you gain Naval Capacity which has a similar effect once you would go over your naval capacity. I assume that happens quite frequently?
Agenda: I assume your prefered agenda is the fleet expansion one? MD is pretty much a lite version of that. You lose the reduced construction time but gain the build cost effect from day1 without having to spend 250+ influence on it. Not sure how relevant the construction time actually is, from my experience mineral tends to be more of a limiting factor anyways, especially after you get your 2nd spaceport to build from.
Lvl2 Admiral: How much of a bonus is this, really. Usually you get your leaders to lvl2 reasonably fast anyways and you miss out on the chance of gaining a trait from lvl up.
Influence to cycle Leaders: You still gain the +25% rivalry influence boost from MD, and the +1 rivalry from militarist. You also dont have to spend influence on the agenda. So yes, in the long run you will end up with less influence, but since we are talking about a rush, its probably fine. You might even be able to spend a little spare influence on other things, like getting a slave govenor or a materials scientist. Depends abit on luck tho.
These were rather easy comparisons to make. From now on directly comparing things get more difficult, especially considering rng plays such a huge role in the early game.
I will list the advantages of both sides: (For clarity, I just name them by their government form, the list includes the entire setup. I will also not include the stuff i discussed above, apart from where it either plays into a bonus i need to consider or maybe the lvl2 admiral)
Military Junta:
Advantages:
Lower Upgrade Cost
+7% Weapon Damage
More longterm Influence income
20% Higher Weapon Tech Weight
Faster Ship Construction
+1 Admiral
Ability to switch rulers
Military Dictatorship:
Advantages:
Ability to enslave your own pop for higher early Mineral gain. (Possibility to snowball)
Higher Food Income/Lower consumption(Faster pop growth, potentially less mineral spend on farms)
Alot less Influence costs, resulting in:
Potential boost in mineral income with slave governor
Potential reduction of ship build costs after research of the Interstellar Fleet Traditions tech with governor
Potential boost to Weapon Tech Weight with materials scientist, which has the advantage of not including missile tech and including armor and repeatable techs. (might even stack multiplicatively, not sure tho)
Potential to run edicts for longer, resulting in faster weapon techs/potentially more naval capacity/potentially more Influence income/POTENTIALLY(even tho thats abit of a stretch, you would need some serious luck to get this in time) more mineral income with share the burden
Now the question is how you weight these. Keep in mind Forced election is abit of a double edged sword because it costs a ton of influence and atleast AFAIK you cant see the traits of the candidates before that. Its also highly likely youre having to settle for a less than perfect ruler, and there is the possibility to either getting only bad ones and the only good one being your fleet admiral, resulting in even higher influence costs. Also i dont think you give early mineral enough credit, as it can snowball quite significantly with turn advantage. +7% Weapon damage is quite good tho.
Feel free to point out if i missed anything or fell prey to any glaring misconception, i am human after all so its bound to happen.
Oh, and just in case, im not saying your strategy is bad by any means. I just enjoy taking ideas and trying to make them even better, so i keep bouncing off ideas until something sticks. In fact, ive never even thought about completly ignoring colonization in favor of conquest until you made your post, so thanks for that. Its actually quite brilliant.
Oh and a followup question, how well are you dealing with the new lvl2 spaceports? And do you take point defense or not? Kinda cuts down on your dps, but makes rocket start empires a freekill.
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are you playing against high agressiveness AI then? because i cant imagine that being too much fun with advanced startsBut not with only advanced AIs
And I am not saying its never possible, you might find a rushable AI here and there but you cant build your game on that.
Guess it depends on how advanced the "advanced start" is, cant tell, never really used it much
2 points:
1. It's a good thing that slaving is a viable and tangibly different strategy. It should not be nerfed to oblivion.
2. If it is indeed totally overpowered, some of OPs suggestions to buff tall are solid. I especially like the defence station at start, maybe combined with a station buff. Part of what makes Civ 5 such a great game is that cities are buff as hell and difficult to take in the early game. The same can be achieved with stations.
1. It's a good thing that slaving is a viable and tangibly different strategy. It should not be nerfed to oblivion.
2. If it is indeed totally overpowered, some of OPs suggestions to buff tall are solid. I especially like the defence station at start, maybe combined with a station buff. Part of what makes Civ 5 such a great game is that cities are buff as hell and difficult to take in the early game. The same can be achieved with stations.