Asia

[Don_Quigleone]

With regards to islam in china I was thinking of a different direction, Islam IRL arrived in indonesia around 1400, It's not such a leap for it to go to china, especially considering it's completely fractured, I was think of someone in maybe southwest china going muslim, also how does Korea and Japan fit into this (though japan seems to be rather subservient to korea in the current build)

 

[siafu]

I guess I'm just not liking that idea so much because Islam is already basically everywhere in Interregnum. Certainly it would be interesting to have it appear in China, but simply taking over seems to me to start reducing, rather than enhancing, the flavor of the game and the story.

So yeah, it's possible. I'm just not too excited about it.

 

[Shogun 144]

I just read over this thread and love all of the ideas proposed by Siafu, it is about time that China got some fleshing out here. I really enjoy this mod and I do look foward to seeing some or all of this implemented. Thumbs up Siafu!

BTW I agree with you about the whole Islam mess. It is already everywhere in this mod. I mean more Islamic factions are only going to make the mod bland, I do not want to see that happen. If anything the increased rise of Islam in this mod's TL will with all probability spark some sort of radical Buddhist sect or something along those lines.

 

[MattyG]

I am all about diversity.

Well, I try to be.

I think there is a little anti-Islamic feeling that keeps popping up. No-one seems to complain about Christianity suceeding where it did not traditionally (Mongolia, the Levant, Qarluk) but people seem very sensitive to Islam doing well in areas it did not historically.

Not that this should be a balance sheet, but lets consider:

Where Islam has been rolled back.

1. The KoJ are a reasonable starting nation and control 6 provinces, including Jerusalem, the third holiest site in Islam.

2. Qarluk is 'nestorian', where it traditionally was Islamic. Bit of a backwater strategically, but there it is all the same.

3. No Mughals. Yes, the Mughals did not convert a lot of India to Islam, but it was an Islamic power which our game does not have.

4. No Ottomans. Islam's big power IRL is replaced by a resurgent (Christian) Byzantium and disunified Turkish minors. Hell, the Byzantines can even get Turkish culture.

5. A more significant religious split than the sunni/shi'a issues of vanilla.

In exchange, Islam gets:

1. Tech increases for Caliphate and Mamelukes.

2. Champa (assuming this gets written up)

3. Al-Andalus, which doesn't have an easy run, but does get to colonize.


On the whole, I'd say Islam has a negative on this balance sheet, even when one considers the value of the tech increases.

So, having Islam be able to make advances in other parts of Asia is both historically plausible and not - on the balance of it - unreasonable.



I like the idea of having Christianity and Islam permeating Asia, as long as we have:

1. The major Asian starting states are Bhuddist/Hindu/Confucian

2. There are reactions against new faiths.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[siafu]

Well, the KoJ don't usually survive, and Islam is also going to be getting Indonesia (where in vanilla, Indonesia didn't really have anything at all) and a large chunk of SE asia, as I'm also assuming that that will get written up.

I don't think it's fair to chalk up my hesitance re: Islam in China to anti-Islamic feeling; there are two major religions in east asia already that aren't anywhere else (Confucian & Buddhism) and an otherwise unique one in India. Giving more success to Islam should, IMHO, come less at the expense of these three in particular as they're already marginalized in vanilla.

I think there is a little anti-Islamic feeling that keeps popping up. No-one seems to complain about Christianity suceeding where it did not traditionally (Mongolia, the Levant, Qarluk) but people seem very sensitive to Islam doing well in areas it did not historically.

Well, Qarluk is only three provinces, the KoJ usually doesn't last all that long even when the caliphate is being run by the AI, and "Mongolia" (excluding the Chagataids) is Christian at the expense of Confucian China, not any Muslim power. Also, Islam usually gains the Maya in the normal course of things. So the balance sheet is not so negative, IMO.

 

[Shogun 144]

Well, the KoJ don't usually survive, and Islam is also going to be getting Indonesia (where in vanilla, Indonesia didn't really have anything at all) and a large chunk of SE asia, as I'm also assuming that that will get written up.

I don't think it's fair to chalk up my hesitance re: Islam in China to anti-Islamic feeling; there are two major religions in east asia already that aren't anywhere else (Confucian & Buddhism) and an otherwise unique one in India. Giving more success to Islam should, IMHO, come less at the expense of these three in particular as they're already marginalized in vanilla.



Well, Qarluk is only three provinces, the KoJ usually doesn't last all that long even when the caliphate is being run by the AI, and "Mongolia" (excluding the Chagataids) is Christian at the expense of Confucian China, not any Muslim power. Also, Islam usually gains the Maya in the normal course of things. So the balance sheet is not so negative, IMO.

I agree with this. The balance sheet is in my opinion pretty much balanced.

I believe that something different should be done in regards to China, religously.

 

[siafu]

I also want to point out that I'm not arguing against having any encroachment of Islam into China; earlier in this thread I wrote out some possible events in response to Ahmed's events for Champa that have some Chinese provinces turning Sunni.

I'm also thinking something can be done with Nanzhao (what is now Lu Chuan); going muslim as a means of breaking away from any potential Chinese control (the people there are Bai, what's labelled as "Upper Burmanese" in 6.35) sounds like a very interesting idea for them.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Actually in the final build of indonesia I don't plan on there being any guarantees of the place going muslim, I'd like to have the buddhist and hindu have just as much of a chance of winning, I just happen to be working on the sultanate first, and I also think that most of southeast asia will stay buddhist (aside from the malay peninsula which is part of the indonesian sequence) I just thought it would be historically feasible of islam attempting to spread through a disunited china if it succeeded in indonesia, as the main factor that halted it historically (the unified chinese state) is no longer present, I also thought it would be a neat way of giving the sultanate a hand in asia. Also we must remember that ideally all developments are one of many possibilities, heck I was thinking it would be nifty if a chinese state tried to spread confucianism in indonesia,

 

[Shogun 144]

Don_Quigleone,

Those are actually some pretty cool ideas about Indonesia, I am going to look foward to playing in that realm of the world. I just want to address something: it was not a unified Chinese state that halted Islam, but the Chinese identity itself. Well actually 'identity' isn't the right word, but it as close as I can get.

In all of my studies of Islam in China it always amazes just how virulent the reaction of the Chinese identity is to Islam. The Chinese Muslims were actually forced to modifiy their religion to fit in with the Chinese mold, which really didn't go well for either side. Chinese Christians actually experienced the same thing believe it or not, which caused the great Chinese Rites controversy in Rome, which set back the mission in China for several years. Makes for very interesting reading on my part.


EDIT: On re-reading this I just want to be clear that it is not that I am saying that no Islamic progress should be possible at all. Just that it should not be all consuming.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

never said it would be all consuming, just though it would be an interesting side note, you are correct about the chinese identity halting islam, but it was also very much down to the fact that the ming dynasty was also extremely isolationist, it was also during this period that christianity crumbled in china due to not being supported by the ming, who as we well know were rather isolationist, in the absence of a centralising entity it would be that much easier for other religions to gain a foothold, albeit adopting a distinctly chinese identity (look at the taiping rebelion in the 19th century) that said I'd only go so far as have islam spread possibly around guangzhou, guangdong and that general area, and there should be a high enough likelihood of it not taking hold

EDIT: Islam has an extensive history in china,zheng he was muslim, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_china

 

[MattyG]

I also want to point out that I'm not arguing against having any encroachment of Islam into China; earlier in this thread I wrote out some possible events in response to Ahmed's events for Champa that have some Chinese provinces turning Sunni.

I'm also thinking something can be done with Nanzhao (what is now Lu Chuan); going muslim as a means of breaking away from any potential Chinese control (the people there are Bai, what's labelled as "Upper Burmanese" in 6.35) sounds like a very interesting idea for them.

I was writing up all of the changes yesterday. I didn't get that nanzhao was replacing Lu Chuan. I have kept Lu Chuan as a single province upper burmanese state and Nanzhao is a three province country with cantonese as its culture.

I have made all the state changes you requested, altering names and province ownerships. I have added the Song text you provided.

 

[MattyG]

I'd like to propose something for China.

Really well-detailed states with events take a very long time to get right. Until you've done one, tested it, reworked it etc, you have no idea how much work is entailed.

In the vein of EU3 and hoping to keep workloads to a minimum, I propose that China be kept more generic with its events. In a sense, retaining the way it is currently done.

We can use a series of random events and long-offset events to cover the main themes we want to explore.

1. Monarchs stay as they are, with a generic title and random events that shift monarch stats to represent a different monarch ascending the throne. This also covers the 'naming' issue, as the Song Emperor would always just be titled ';Song Emperor'. The events could even have titles that reflect cultural cosiderations, like "Isolationist Emperor ( DIP-3 ADM +1 MIL +1 Inno -1 ) and so forth.

2. Peasant rebellions? These can be nicely handled through the long-offset events. One per half-century with an offset of 10000.

3. Court Intrigue? Well, we already have the Political Uncertainty type events, but we could draft a bunch of Chinese-style events.

4. For the confucian countries, maybe more random events related to superstition and the reading of omens?

In this way we keep the number of country and period specific events to a minimum.

MattyG

 

[siafu]

I have made all the state changes you requested, altering names and province ownerships. I have added the Song text you provided.

Wow. Well, it's still a work in progress, but I'm rather impressed with the diligence.

Which three provs did you give to Nanzhao? This is not Lanzhou, btw; I'm still not sure what to do with that country, it just has prov. 1558 right now.

Nanzhao should be provs. 1545 (Kachin), 1557 (Sichuan), and 1553 (Yunnan). Yunnan (1553) is the capital. What is the technical feasibility/desirability of adding/changing cultures, btw? "Bai" would be better than "Upper Burmanese, at least for 1545 and 1553. Sichuan, 1557, should be Han.

 

[MattyG]

Wow. Well, it's still a work in progress, but I'm rather impressed with the diligence.

Which three provs did you give to Nanzhao? This is not Lanzhou, btw; I'm still not sure what to do with that country, it just has prov. 1558 right now.

Nanzhao should be provs. 1545 (Kachin), 1557 (Sichuan), and 1553 (Yunnan). Yunnan (1553) is the capital. What is the technical feasibility/desirability of adding/changing cultures, btw? "Bai" would be better than "Upper Burmanese, at least for 1545 and 1553. Sichuan, 1557, should be Han.

I left Kachin to the Lu Chuan. I can change Upper Burmanese to Bai. I gave 1558 to Nanzhao.

But I can change it all. I just liked the idea of keeping this little burman state. So cute.

1558 is the Gold province, the most valuable in the region. Perhaps nanzhao could begin the game as a state that has recently undergone a transformation, improving its administration and military and conquered 1558, perhaps under the leadership of a fine general who is still alive, or an excellent monarch, or both?

 

[siafu]

Perhaps nanzhao could begin the game as a state that has recently undergone a transformation, improving its administration and military and conquered 1558, perhaps under the leadership of a fine general who is still alive, or an excellent monarch, or both?

Bonne idee.

 

[siafu]

Is Ahmed, the author of the Champa events, still following what happens on this forum? I think his feedback on what's being done would be very interesting.

MattyG sez:

(yada yada)
In this way we keep the number of country and period specific events to a minimum.

This would probably be a good idea for the immediate future I guess, since it sounds like you're pushing hard now to get version 1.0 out and done. I just happen to like Asian histories and cultures, and the EU series, so I would like to see the Asian nations treated reasonably in Interregnum and my goal is to write events/monarchs/&c. for them that are on par with what exists for Europe. There can be at least a couple interesting players in the east, even if not all of them are polished.

I'm also assuming that if coding up all this stuff becomes too much for you, you'll let me (us) know, and I can try to work on that also. Until you complain, I'll just assume everything is fine (it is, right?).

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I think the next major release of interregnum will focus more on asia (call it an expansion pack if you will)

 

[MattyG]

Is Ahmed, the author of the Champa events, still following what happens on this forum? I think his feedback on what's being done would be very interesting.

MattyG sez:


This would probably be a good idea for the immediate future I guess, since it sounds like you're pushing hard now to get version 1.0 out and done. I just happen to like Asian histories and cultures, and the EU series, so I would like to see the Asian nations treated reasonably in Interregnum and my goal is to write events/monarchs/&c. for them that are on par with what exists for Europe. There can be at least a couple interesting players in the east, even if not all of them are polished.

I'm also assuming that if coding up all this stuff becomes too much for you, you'll let me (us) know, and I can try to work on that also. Until you complain, I'll just assume everything is fine (it is, right?).

Ahmed has been the single best playtester we have had. He got banned over a year ago, but still writes to me with bugs and suggestions.

I haven't heard from him in about a month. He's working pretty hard on his Islamic site. It's in Latvian, I presume, so I haven't been to visit it.

I only made that as a suggestion. I would be much happier to see Asia done in something like the detail we have in Europe, but that is asking a lot. Then again, you've made a good start!

 

[MattyG]

I think the next major release of interregnum will focus more on asia (call it an expansion pack if you will)

I will continue to code up the events produced and bug fix etc once 1.0 is out.

But, I am thinking that my own energy might best be used in starting the process of updating Interregnum to WatK4.

 

[Rhodz]

I don't think asia should be kept "generic". I think it should be as fleshed out as Europe at the very least. Besides, if there are people willing to work on it, there's no issue, right?

I must say I've become quite interested in this interregnum china idea. Siafu, would you mind terribly if I contributed? I could brush up on my Chinese history knowledge and perhaps begin to flesh out an area you've not really concentrated on? The Jurchen, perhaps?