Ashikaga Bakufu options?

[James_Manring]

Is there any intention of creating any options for the Shogun?
Is not the leader of Clan Ashikaga the sitting Shogun?
Will there be any bonus or malus for the Ashikaga Shogunate depending on the style of their Bakufu in sharing some power with the Emperor?
Is there an option for Ashikaga to reform their Bakufu when they control a certain percentage of Japan or is it 50% like all other clans?

 

[unmerged(382543)]

What kinds of things did they actually do with the shogunate seat during the Sengoku Jidai?

 

[James_Manring]

I believe the question is more what kinds of things could they have done with the seat during the Sengoku Jidai? I am in the middle of a game with clan Ashikaga where I have a fairly good chance of reaching 50%. I am asking more for some plausibility.

In part because Ashikaga Takauji established his shogunate by siding with the Emperor against the previous Kamakura shogunate, the Ashikagas shared more of the governmental authority with the Imperial government than the Kamakura shogunate had. Thus, it was a weaker shogunate than the Kamakura shogunate or the Tokugawa shogunate. The centralized master-vassal system used in the Kamakura system was replaced with the highly de-centralized daimyo (local lord) system, and the military power of the Ashikaga shogunate depended heavily on the loyalty of the daimyo.

If I bring the Ashikaga clan leader to hold many Daimyo titles, I do believe there should be an option to reform the Bakufu. I also think there should be a bonus for the Shogun that changes with the structure of the Bakufu.

 

[unmerged(382543)]

So you just want them to have a unique victory message?

 

[James_Manring]

I don't know if it is just a victory message I am after. Perhaps they should have different victory conditions and some extra flavor. I would also like to see some kind of bonus/malus combination for being the Shogun and leader of a Clan. It is difficult to prevent being eaten by Hosokawa outright in the beginning. I don't think I know enough of the details about the culture and history, but if Ashikaga had made a resurgence how would it have played out differently?

They shared some power with the Emperor, so could they have chosen to reinstate the Emperor and fight for him instead of reshaping the Bakufu to centralize Daimyo titles? I think making them directly control at least 25% of Japan before they decide to do either would be a good metric. Either way it would mean the sitting Shogun has enough authority to try and change the government structure to become more centralized. I think the requirement to then make the rest of Japan accept it could then be 50% to win the game. This makes sense to me as a clan asserting themselves as a Shogun in a new centralized structure is already represented by requiring 50% to win the game.

Additionally, if clan Ashikaga is no longer independent then the largest clan's leader should be referred to as Taikun. This should have some kind of bonus/malus with it. I imagine it should also make plots against you more likely to form.

 

[DarthJF]

They shared some power with the Emperor, so could they have chosen to reinstate the Emperor and fight for him instead of reshaping the Bakufu to centralize Daimyo titles?

They didn't really share power with the Emperor. After all, Ashikaga had fought and defeated the forces of court during the Kenmu Restoration, and thus cemented the position of military class as the true rulers of the country.

What government reform resurgent Ashikaga would have done, would probably have been exactly what the Tokugawa shogunate later did. Re-establish bakufu control over the daimyos, so that they can no longer act as indepent force from their local stong holds.

 

[unmerged(382543)]

What would you even do to make clans accept the new structure? Still conquer them/convince vassals to join you?

 

[unmerged(85988)]

I think it won't go to Ashikaga alone, but everyone who become the shogun themselves.
My idea is to make Kyoto as a special place in this game. Whoever capture it can become the next Shogun. The one who is thrown before you will become the pretender and they can gather support to oppose the newer one (of course, the power to gain support is based on a value in the game. Ashikaga will have the biggest support because they were the legitimate shogun from the old time. The newer one need to gather support first before they can call from their supporters help).

Historically, it happen in Sengoku Jidai.

- Imagawa clan declared their intention to rule over the land by marching their army to the capital (Kyoto), until they meet their end in the Owari.
- Ashikaga Yoshiaki run from the capital (after the Miyoshi clan kick them) and run to Owari to gain support from Oda Nobunaga; thus give Oda Nobunaga the casus belli to march to the capital.
- the same Ashikaga Yoshiaki run from Oda care to gather support from the another clans / daimyo to oppose the Oda army. But get crushed by Nobunaga.

As Shogun, your job is getting support from another daimyo / clan, and as a clan you have an option to support or not support the current shogunate. So basically, as a shogun, your job is to get support (and crush the one who oppose) from every clan in Nippon. It happen to real history in Nippon I guess. No clan really capture the whole Japan in Sengoku Jidai (not even Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu). They got support from another existing clans to rule over Japan.

You can call this as "diplomacy victory"

But... well, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Ritzzz]

I think it won't go to Ashikaga alone, but everyone who become the shogun themselves.
My idea is to make Kyoto as a special place in this game. Whoever capture it can become the next Shogun. The one who is thrown before you will become the pretender and they can gather support to oppose the newer one (of course, the power to gain support is based on a value in the game. Ashikaga will have the biggest support because they were the legitimate shogun from the old time. The newer one need to gather support first before they can call from their supporters help).

Historically, it happen in Sengoku Jidai.

- Imagawa clan declared their intention to rule over the land by marching their army to the capital (Kyoto), until they meet their end in the Owari.
- Ashikaga Yoshiaki run from the capital (after the Miyoshi clan kick them) and run to Owari to gain support from Oda Nobunaga; thus give Oda Nobunaga the casus belli to march to the capital.
- the same Ashikaga Yoshiaki run from Oda care to gather support from the another clans / daimyo to oppose the Oda army. But get crushed by Nobunaga.

As Shogun, your job is getting support from another daimyo / clan, and as a clan you have an option to support or not support the current shogunate. So basically, as a shogun, your job is to get support (and crush the one who oppose) from every clan in Nippon. It happen to real history in Nippon I guess. No clan really capture the whole Japan in Sengoku Jidai (not even Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu). They got support from another existing clans to rule over Japan.

You can call this as "diplomacy victory"

But... well, maybe I'm wrong.

A diplo victory makes sense to me, as daimyos (eg Date and Shimazu) submitting to Tokugawa/Toyotomi authority towards the end of the Sengoku Jidai was pretty common.

Another situation is what if the Ashikaga clan has been totally whipped out, or at least degenerated to a state that they can no longer even claim themselves to be the shogunate? Then I suppose we can have something similar to what Brainsucker is suggesting, whereby anybody who holds onto Kyoto can claim to have the Emperor's support, declare himself to be the new Shogun (eg Akechi Mitsuhide) and start a long process of gaining support from other clans. And of course you can fail horribly, like in Mitsuhide's case.

In addition the supporters themselves, once they themselves get big enough, may want to start puppeting the shogunate or even start a coup to take over the shogunate totally.

I would also assume that if this is be done, the coding could take into account of the current claimant's size, relations to the claimant's neighbours and other clans of equal or bigger size, and the strength of supporters/oppositon etc when the AI decides to support or oppose the claimant or take over.

 

[unmerged(382543)]

Technically the 50% and 3 years stability thing is a diplo victory- the victory by pure force is when you claim 100% of the land.

 

[Ritzzz]

Technically the 50% and 3 years stability thing is a diplo victory- the victory by pure force is when you claim 100% of the land.

Then my question is this:

let's say your clan rules Kyushu, Chugoku, Shigoku and a bit in the middle, giving you a just nice 51%. Meanwhile in eastern japan, another clan has just unified the other 49% during your 3 year stability period. So when you declare yourself Shogun after those 3 years, technically your position isn't the most stable, as the 49% clan has not submitted to you and probably will not given that he's not much smaller than you are. Sure you can DOW on the 49% clan, but until you triumph over them, are you only a shogun in name or a real de facto shogun?

So my point is, unless your clan is waaaaay bigger then other independent clans (eg you are 60%, and everyone else's <15%) or other similar sized clans have submitted to you, technically diplo victory has yet to be achieved as your position is still pretty unstable.

 

[unmerged(382543)]

If they've actually got that kind of control over the area then they declare war and knock you off your perch before you can go enacting whatever laws and putting them into practice.

Realistically you don't have such a close race though. If there's even a decent group of powerful clans in the rest of Japan they form a plot and come kick your ass instead of just waiting it out- unless you've actually set up some stability with your stats, marriages, hostages, and ninja efforts to weaken your opponents.

In the game I won as the Oda clan I ended up somewhat forced to not-blob. (There aren't enough years to roll up the honor and you can only goad so many dipshits into declaring war for you.) I hit around 53% and had at least 40% of the rest of Japan in direct contact with me. I was close enough to the end date that I would likely have lost with a big war plot against me (remember, they can grab up your vassals to instantly take land from you.) Tso my point with this- when you control 50% of the land that's not just "I have slightly more than half the power." At that point you have slightly more than half the power in addition to whatever clan relations you've worked on. With a lone 49% neighbor clan you'd actually be very stable- it would just take one marriage and maybe a bribe to make a war declaration unreasonably dishonorable for them. Actual rulers would almost certainly work out some hotage exchanges as that one clan was up to 49% control as well- it would be a terrible loss for them to enter a war shortly into that 3 year span- they're a good deal smaller at that point and would have other war targets in mind.
*and if absolutely need be they could switch to the 49% religion for that much more relation boost- the honor/levy/tax boosts wouldn't matter anymore.

If you directly control 50% of the land yet less than ~70% influence then you must have intentionally been trying to let the other clans kick you out of shogunate.

 

[Drakken]

What kinds of things did they actually do with the shogunate seat during the Sengoku Jidai?

Lots of things, just that warlords listened when it suited them.

 

[James_Manring]

So have any of us reached a point of agreement here that the Shogunate should have more flavor than just being claimed by the first clan to reach 50% of the land? I like a lot of what I have been reading here. My major motivation in bringing this up is my recent self-challenge of surviving the opening war against Hosokawa as Ashikaga. I found that once I had held them back for long enough that they would accept conceding defeat to me, that I could successfully plot against and topple them. After this it was very easy to unite 100% of Japan with 7 clans accepting subjugation. After 50% the option to "claim the shogunate" was available, which does not make sense to me as I was already the Ashikaga clan. Clan Ashikaga seemed to be very fertile even though all of the clan leaders seem to come down with leprosy and have no children. Almost every kori was held by an Ashikaga vassal, with most of those holding 5 kukojin titles.

I am looking for a little more flavor to add to the game. In the beginning Ashikaga is in a civil war. They are far from being a large clan. There should be another clan leader of a larger clan, or several in succession that claim to be the Taikun for a puppet Shogun and provide stiff resistance to the Shogun when he tries to assert dominance. This should also be the case after another clan has claimed the shogunate and another has managed to cut them back down to size. There should be new plot types associated with this dynamic as well.

 

[unmerged(382543)]

It could probably be expanded upon somewhat. Creating a situation where you didn't actually have direct control over half of Japan could make it much harder to actually maintain whatever threshold of "% control" over Japan. I'm not certain that the game wouldn't have to be totally reworked to now encourage you to leave powerful neighbors intact- if anything it has been moving in the opposite direction with honor making it much harder to grow without warring against similar sized neighbors.

Winning over many small neighbors doesn't seem very workable either as you're bound to assimilate the lot of them the first time the AI sets up a plot from your having grown too large. You would need clans without shared borders to have large involvement in wars against you, but the supply limits in neutral territories are largely prohibitive of marching those big 30k stacks over to gnaw at your territories.

The kind of radical rewriting this seems to require, are probably beyond a bunch of forum fans to bring suitable balance to.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

I think it won't go to Ashikaga alone, but everyone who become the shogun themselves.
My idea is to make Kyoto as a special place in this game. Whoever capture it can become the next Shogun. The one who is thrown before you will become the pretender and they can gather support to oppose the newer one (of course, the power to gain support is based on a value in the game. Ashikaga will have the biggest support because they were the legitimate shogun from the old time. The newer one need to gather support first before they can call from their supporters help).

Historically, it happen in Sengoku Jidai.

- Imagawa clan declared their intention to rule over the land by marching their army to the capital (Kyoto), until they meet their end in the Owari.
- Ashikaga Yoshiaki run from the capital (after the Miyoshi clan kick them) and run to Owari to gain support from Oda Nobunaga; thus give Oda Nobunaga the casus belli to march to the capital.
- the same Ashikaga Yoshiaki run from Oda care to gather support from the another clans / daimyo to oppose the Oda army. But get crushed by Nobunaga.

As Shogun, your job is getting support from another daimyo / clan, and as a clan you have an option to support or not support the current shogunate. So basically, as a shogun, your job is to get support (and crush the one who oppose) from every clan in Nippon. It happen to real history in Nippon I guess. No clan really capture the whole Japan in Sengoku Jidai (not even Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu). They got support from another existing clans to rule over Japan.

You can call this as "diplomacy victory"

But... well, maybe I'm wrong.

Love it!

 

[unmerged(85988)]

I know that diplomacy victory is hard to decide as there are a lot of problem with this idea. But at least, make Kyoto as a special place where you can get the emperor support and claim the Shogun title. Well, this way, you won't be stuck as the clan that sit on the corner. You will get different experience when your clan is around the central japan.

Plus, AI and you just can choose "support" the shogun but plot to kick him out of his seat. Or just use the situation to "help" the shogun but actually expand your domains. useful if you are a small clan and need protection from the beast like Hosokawa, Yamana, and Uesugi.

It is also useful for the onin war scenario where the warlords actually take side in the war.

There is another victory that you can take. For example, the retinue victory, or honorable victory. With this, you can take side of a shogun, support him to the end, help him to rule over Japan and become the most honorable samurai of Japan. You won't get land, maybe the shogun will give you some. But, you won't get many of it. Instead, you will get loyalty point or honor point or something that bring your character to a status of "the loyal retainer who help the Shogun to bring the peace to the land".

With this, both AI and you can pursue this kind of victory. That's why, you will find an AI that will help you like a die hard supporter if you are the shogun (but of course, not many)

I know that it will require a lot of coding though. But I also know that Paradox has a lot of experience with that kind of features.

 

[unmerged(382543)]

Where's the strategy in "become the most honorable samurai"?

 

[unmerged(85988)]

just for the fun, but you're right. it's a bad idea

 

[unmerged(382543)]

Well I wasn't trying to be mean- I just assumed you had a bigger vision of it that you weren't explaining. There could be some game mode you declare at the start where you try to be an honorable vassal maybe? Needs something to discourage you from breaking free the moment you hit critical mass and could take over the clan... but what?