Ascension Perk Elimination

[Kayden_II]

It seems some people don't understand that the Colossus is not about destroying planets.

It's about annexing huge chunks of territory without the need of claims and influence.

Maybe, but this leads to the question, why the super-weapons and this special cb are packed together in the first place.

 

[GloatingSwine]

This echoes my argument against the colossus. Both of these perks are strong, perhaps Tech Ascendancy is too strong, but while having more science feels good and can help, it doesn’t beat more minerals. More territory = more minerals. Colossus requires a massive amount of minerals to get you the total war CB, when you could have simply seized that territory earlier and used the minerals for development for a much better return on investment. Shared destiny is also quite nice for seizing territory, but I don’t mind people voting it out because it is more niche and finicky due to the vassilization system.

But Tech Ascendancy isn't even strong. Because the effect of having higher tech isn't strong, and you can keep up in tech without it.

It's just the only slightly useful choice for a non-expansionist empire. But in the context of this thread non-expansionist empires are disfavoured because they don't meet the victory conditions

People are catastrophically overvaluing it because every other 4x game rewards science progress strongly, but Stellaris just doesn't.

 

[Silens]

Maybe, but this leads to the question, why the super-weapons and this special cb are packed together in the first place.

Because building a Colossus is like owning nuclear weapons. You declare yourself a superpower and stop playing the diplomatic game of fabricating flimsy excuses to claim certain systems. No, you just go and take it. Because you can.

Like nuclear weapons Colossi are less about actually using them, they are mostly a symbol of power.

 

[WhapXI]

No, I've downvoted Tech Asc because it's a bad choice in the meta.

Because it only makes sense if you choose it first, and the only on-meta first choice is Interstellar Dominion. Science is not a path to victory in Stellaris, minerals are. And you get more minerals by having more space, which you need influence to get. Influence is the most limited resource in Stellaris.

The way to approach science in Stellaris is not to maximise your rate of science progress, but to choose effectively which techs to research and which researchers to place in slots to generate good draws.

I can see the logic, and in a straight comparison there's definitely an argument to be had.

But to suggest that ID somehow fully invalidates TA and makes it the least useful thing in the list is disingenuous. I don't think think either fully invalidates the other and they'd work almost much equally effectively as a first and second pick in either orientation, assuming you don't expand so much that your unity production is totally wrecked.

Maybe, but this leads to the question, why the super-weapons and this special cb are packed together in the first place.

I would say it helps Colossi not just be a gimmick pick. The superweapons themselves aren't very useful, but their utility shouldn't be available earlier in the game. Without the CB, Colossi would more or less be an RP pick.

Anywho I'm sorry for derailing the thread. Can we get back to the voting?

 

[GloatingSwine]

I can see the logic, and in a straight comparison there's definitely an argument to be had.

But to suggest that ID somehow fully invalidates TA and makes it the least useful thing in the list is disingenuous. I don't think think either fully invalidates the other and they'd work almost much equally effectively as a first and second pick in either orientation, assuming you don't expand so much that your unity production is totally wrecked.

They are a straight comparison though.

They're competing for your first tradition slot.

Your second and fourth are going to be either your chosen ascension path or Voidborne/Wonders, and your third is probably Galactic Force Projection or Master Builders.

And by the time you've gotten to your fifth ascension, you're way too late in the game for 10% research speed to offer a meaningful bonus because you've racked up plenty of other research speed bonuses and the marginal utility of another one has dropped considerably. (Remembering that you can also use that on World Shaper and get 10% multiplicative bonus on all resources).

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

Executive Vigor 20
Imperial Prerogative: 2 (-2)
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 7 (+1)
Technological Ascendancy: 28
Transcendent Learning: 13
Voidborne: 20
Grasp the Void: 7
Galactic Force Projection: 20
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 10
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

IP is a perk that noone should need to pick in the current patch. Sector management isn't nearly as troublesome as it used to be. I'm also continuing my (probably futile) rescue attempt of MoN which I still see as a better pick than Voidborne in many situations.

Galactic Contender and Eternal Vigilance has been added to the graveyard.

Eliminated
19. Eternal Vigilance
20. Galactic Contender
21. One Vision
22. Shared Destiny
23. Consecrated Worlds
24. Enigmatic Engineering
25. Synthetic Age
26. Nihilistic Acquisition

For the record, a vigorous debate about perk balance isn't really a derail in my opinion, as long as the debate is (mostly) about the perks that haven't yet been eliminated. It's alright to soapbox in an attempt to sway voters to your pet perks

 

[Pointyearedgit]

But Tech Ascendancy isn't even strong. Because the effect of having higher tech isn't strong, and you can keep up in tech without it.

It's just the only slightly useful choice for a non-expansionist empire. But in the context of this thread non-expansionist empires are disfavoured because they don't meet the victory conditions

People are catastrophically overvaluing it because every other 4x game rewards science progress strongly, but Stellaris just doesn't.

I’ll clarify, the bonus is large compared to what you have access to early game, the tech itself that you get isn’t too powerful, as you indicated. Not bad, but not as impactful as territory and pops.

For example, fanatic spiritualists get +20% unity compared to 10% on one vision, while TA is equal to the fanatic materialist bonus.

Interstellar dominion is close to Fanatic Xenophobe, but you get an extra -starbase cost from xenophobia ofc.

Executive vigor is off the charts strong in the early game for edicts, nothing comes close to 50% duration except imperial cult + fanatic spiritualist (and/or cutthroat politics). It also has good second pick synergy with ID, as both can get you more minerals at high influence efficiency.

 

[sortulv]

...MoN which I still see as a better pick than Voidborne in many situations.

It is not bad, quite useful infact - but it does little to help you win. Voidborne means turning minerals + influence into victory points (colonies). Voidborne is at it's very best not when held by the player, but when it is held by the player's feudal vassals. MoN tends to be bad for wide play because it takes a resource you need lots of (influence) for each world...

 

[WhapXI]

They are a straight comparison though.

They're competing for your first tradition slot.

Your second and fourth are going to be either your chosen ascension path or Voidborne/Wonders, and your third is probably Galactic Force Projection or Master Builders.

And by the time you've gotten to your fifth ascension, you're way too late in the game for 10% research speed to offer a meaningful bonus because you've racked up plenty of other research speed bonuses and the marginal utility of another one has dropped considerably. (Remembering that you can also use that on World Shaper and get 10% multiplicative bonus on all resources).

So going off the logic that you have your first four picks more or less mapped out for a general game.

I would argue that a late-pick of Tech Asc, no matter how much the utility is diminished, it's still not the least useful thing on the list. Grasp the Void, for instance, is less useful than Tech Asc as a first pick (which it's explicitly competing for), and far far far less useful as a fifth pick.

Going by your own specific criteria, does four starbases directly contribute towards victory? No.

If I'm stuck for a fifth pick, assuming I've gone down the route you suggest, will I pick Tech Asc? Probably not but it's an outside possibility. Will I pick GtV? Absolutely definitely never.

Therefore you downvoted Tech Asc, not because it was the least useful, but because you dislike how people overvalue it. QED.

 

[y1kdcb5au9rqw]

Executive Vigor 20
Imperial Prerogative: 0 (-2)
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 7
Technological Ascendancy: 28
Transcendent Learning: 13
Voidborne: 20 (+1)
Grasp the Void: 7
Galactic Force Projection: 20
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 10
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

Could not resist putting IP out of its misery and it is completely useless in any strategy I can think of.

Voidborne because it is nice not having to fight to expand.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I would argue that a late-pick of Tech Asc, no matter how much the utility is diminished, it's still not the least useful thing on the list. Grasp the Void, for instance, is less useful than Tech Asc as a first pick (which it's explicitly competing for), and far far far less useful as a fifth pick.

Grasp the Void can't compete for first pick, it requires 1 other perk. It's not as good as a second pick as your first ascension, and as third pick Galactic Force Projection is faster because it's 80 now not 144 later with a hefty mineral cost.

Going by your own specific criteria, does four starbases directly contribute towards victory? No.

It's 144 fleet capacity. That's very likely to be a noticable portion of your total fleet cap even quite late on in the game. It's totally a viable fifth or even sixth pick. You can basically never have too many starbases because each starbase is either 36 fleet capacity or 50 odd energy to feed it with.

 

[Badesumofu]

Executive Vigor 20
Imperial Prerogative: 0 (-2)
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 5 (-2)
Technological Ascendancy: 28
Transcendent Learning: 13
Voidborne: 20 (+1)
Grasp the Void: 7
Galactic Force Projection: 20
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 11 (+1)
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

MoN is a bad value for influence. That is - the ability it grants would be of little to no use even if it didn't require an AP. That makes the AP of almost no value whatsoever.

Total War (which is what the perk should be called) is a huge boost in the mid-game. You can now conquer as fast as you like and your influence is now freed up to spend on edicts. You don't delay conquest because you plan to get it, you just hit the accelerator when you get it. Based on the actual criteria of this thread, there is no way this perk should be getting voted down at this point. There are still perks that contribute literally nothing based on the stated criteria alive.

 

[WhapXI]

Grasp the Void can't compete for first pick, it requires 1 other perk. It's not as good as a second pick as your first ascension, and as third pick Galactic Force Projection is faster because it's 80 now not 144 later with a hefty mineral cost.

Woops okay I'm dumb, but the point more-or-less stands.

It's 144 fleet capacity. That's very likely to be a noticable portion of your total fleet cap even quite late on in the game. It's totally a viable fifth or even sixth pick. You can basically never have too many starbases because each starbase is either 36 fleet capacity or 50 odd energy to feed it with.

I wouldn't say paying 15000 minerals and waiting 9 years for 144 naval cap at that point of the game is exactly worth a perk. By that stage you should have a sufficient fleet to take on pretty much anyone. I often find that my amount of ships is prohibited more by energy upkeep rather than use of fleet cap, and I generally have starbase cap to spare even still. With that said, the best way to get more starbase cap or fleet cap at that by then is to grow it or conquer it. The latter especially if you've already gone Interstellar Dominion and/or GFP.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I wouldn't say paying 15000 minerals and waiting 9 years for 144 naval cap at that point of the game is exactly worth a perk. By that stage you should have a sufficient fleet to take on pretty much anyone. I often find that my amount of ships is prohibited more by energy upkeep rather than use of fleet cap, and I generally have starbase cap to spare even still. With that said, the best way to get more starbase cap or fleet cap at that by then is to grow it or conquer it. The latter especially if you've already gone Interstellar Dominion and/or GFP.

If you can't get more ships because you need more energy, Grasp the Void is 200+ energy (depending on how many empire production bonuses you've got) and quicker and cheaper than a Dyson Sphere.

 

[Vonuggbin]

Executive Vigor 20
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 5
Technological Ascendancy: 26 (-2)
Transcendent Learning: 13
Voidborne: 21
Grasp the Void: 7
Galactic Force Projection: 21 (+1)
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 11
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

Day 2:
I removed Imperial prerogative and added a point to voidborne since y1kdcb5au9rqw upvoted it but forgot to add a point.

Stellaris is one of the few games in it's genre where more tech and faster is not the solution to everything. In fact I'd always choose more minerals, ships and/or land over a slight increase in research speed and I can't remember the last time I chose Technological Ascendancy. Yes I'd even rather chose Grasp the Void.

 

[John Rusher]

Executive Vigor 20
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 5
Technological Ascendancy: 26 (-2)
Transcendent Learning: 13
Voidborne: 21
Grasp the Void: 7
Galactic Force Projection: 21 (+1)
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 11
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

Day 2:
I removed Imperial prerogative and added a point to voidborne since y1kdcb5au9rqw upvoted it but forgot to add a point.

Stellaris is one of the few games in it's genre where more tech and faster is not the solution to everything. In fact I'd always choose more minerals, ships and/or land over a slight increase in research speed and I can't remember the last time I chose Technological Ascendancy. Yes I'd even rather chose Grasp the Void.

Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 5
Technological Ascendancy: 26
Transcendent Learning: 14 (+1)
Voidborne: 21
Grasp the Void: 5 (-2)
Galactic Force Projection: 21
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 11
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

Transcendent learning is great, who wanted to kill it prematurely???? I mean realy +2 to all skill levels for leaders...

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

Executive Vigor: 20
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 5
Technological Ascendancy: 26
Transcendent Learning: 14
Voidborne: 21
Grasp the Void: 5
Galactic Force Projection: 21
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 11
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

Updated list (no vote). People keep stealthily removing Executive Vigor

Imperial Prerogative has been added to the graveyard.

Eliminated
18. Imperial Prerogative
19. Eternal Vigilance
20. Galactic Contender
21. One Vision
22. Shared Destiny
23. Consecrated Worlds
24. Enigmatic Engineering
25. Synthetic Age
26. Nihilistic Acquisition

 

[John Rusher]

Executive Vigor: 20
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 5
Technological Ascendancy: 26
Transcendent Learning: 14
Voidborne: 21
Grasp the Void: 5
Galactic Force Projection: 21
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 11
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 11
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

Updated list (no vote). People keep stealthily removing Executive Vigor

Imperial Prerogative has been added to the graveyard.

Eliminated
18. Imperial Prerogative
19. Eternal Vigilance
20. Galactic Contender
21. One Vision
22. Shared Destiny
23. Consecrated Worlds
24. Enigmatic Engineering
25. Synthetic Age
26. Nihilistic Acquisition

Propably because it is in the first place, sometimes when you mark to copy, it doesn't properly mark it, and if you don't notice, this is the result.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Transcendent learning is great, who wanted to kill it prematurely???? I mean realy +2 to all skill levels for leaders...

It's super easy to get leader levels elsewhere though.

 

[Bobylein]

Executive Vigor: 20
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Mastery of Nature: 5
Technological Ascendancy: 26
Transcendent Learning: 14
Voidborne: 21
Grasp the Void: 3 (-2)
Galactic Force Projection: 21
Machine Worlds: 13
Master Builders: 16
World Shaper: 20
Colossus Project: 11
Defender of the Galaxy: 10
Galactic Wonders: 17
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 12 (+1)
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 21

Updated list (no vote). People keep stealthily removing Executive Vigor

Imperial Prerogative has been added to the graveyard.

Eliminated
18. Imperial Prerogative
19. Eternal Vigilance
20. Galactic Contender
21. One Vision
22. Shared Destiny
23. Consecrated Worlds
24. Enigmatic Engineering
25. Synthetic Age
26. Nihilistic Acquisition


I don't want to copy myself and WhapXI made a good argument to not vote TA down right now, but I want to add that it usually competes with Voidborne for me, which is often my first pick if I intend to go wonders/habitats, until I get fortress tech I just wait with the picks.

Also transcendent learning combined with a long living species seems better too.

Even though I think it has it's place for "tall" empires, GotV is most of the time just not worth the slot it takes.

I LOVE the biological ascension together with syncretic slaves, you can get absurd amount of minerals from the start on in that build and later upgrade them even further + nerve stable them, it's just great and strong. Even though it's microhell. At least until you got all "good guys