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Silens

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Which requires that you build the Colossus.
What game are you playing? It's certainly not this one if you think it takes that long to get a system productive.

You're right, my bad. Usually I have the minerals (and a conquered FE starbase) to build it right away, so I never pay attention to when the CB is unlocked. The Colossus itself just isn't an integral part of waging wars, so I only use it in a quite limited capacity. My point is, mineral costs and fleet capacity are irrelevant in the lategame, as is the Colossus itself. The true treat is the unlocked CB, which boosts territory gain and your economy (more edicts).

And don't forget that we talk of a difference in size of around 20%. Even with 20% less systems I have better things to do in early to midgame, like developing my core regions instead of some far-away freshly-conquered and hard-to-defend systems that border my rivals. Of course those systems will see some development in time, but only when my minerals are not needed somewhere else. So yes, it might take a few years until those systems become a net profit (not just productive, but a net profit - and that's the point of investing into conquest).
 

evilcat

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Interstellar Dominion: 25
Galactic Wonders: Eliminated
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 16
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 12

Synthetic Ascension +1, there is some strategy of fast expand, and then reroll your specie into robots. Adaptibility+Rapid Breader

Psionic Ascension -2, a bit random.
 

James Fire

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You're right, my bad. Usually I have the minerals (and a conquered FE starbase) to build it right away, so I never pay attention to when the CB is unlocked. The Colossus itself just isn't an integral part of waging wars, so I only use it in a quite limited capacity. My point is, mineral costs and fleet capacity are irrelevant in the lategame, as is the Colossus itself. The true treat is the unlocked CB, which boosts territory gain and your economy (more edicts).

And don't forget that we talk of a difference in size of around 20%. Even with 20% less systems I have better things to do in early to midgame, like developing my core regions instead of some far-away freshly-conquered and hard-to-defend systems that border my rivals. Of course those systems will see some development in time, but only when my minerals are not needed somewhere else. So yes, it might take a few years until those systems become a net profit (not just productive, but a net profit - and that's the point of investing into conquest).
You mean you dont have enough minerals to develop everything?
 

Hertzila

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Noooooo...! My megastructures! What have you all doooneeee...! :(

/obligatory JK

Interstellar Dominion: 25
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 18 (+1)
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 8 (-2)

I've said my piece for these before and that hasn't changed.
 

Silens

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You mean you dont have enough minerals to develop everything?

I don't know on which difficulty you play, but in early to midgame you shouldn't have minerals lying around, even as a normal-sized empire. That usually changes halfway in mid- to lategame, but until then core systems are a priority.
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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I don't know on which difficulty you play, but in early to midgame you shouldn't have minerals lying around, even as a normal-sized empire. That usually changes halfway in mid- to lategame, but until then core systems are a priority.
Sure, but the reason I don't have minerals lying around is often due to claiming and developing systems :p

And, as mentioned before, it's 20% more (actually 25% more) systems if it's your only discount.

If DE or DS, it's 40%/67% more (but half the perk is wasted (DA is arguably the worst one to take it with, since they miss out on half the perk and only get 25%)).
If xenophobe or fanatic xenophobe, it's 33%/50% more.
When you get the expansion traditions, or purity if you have it, it goes up as well.

The main time it fails is if you get hemmed in early.

However, if you get hemmed in around, like, 2240:
1. You would have been even more hemmed in without ISD.
2. You grabbed all those systems and started profiting from them faster.
3. You are now better able to wage war, due to #2 and reduced claim cost (if you care) than before.
 

Pointyearedgit

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Sure, but the reason I don't have minerals lying around is often due to claiming and developing systems :p

And, as mentioned before, it's 20% more (actually 25% more) systems if it's your only discount.

If DE or DS, it's 40%/67% more (but half the perk is wasted (DA is arguably the worst one to take it with, since they miss out on half the perk and only get 25%)).
If xenophobe or fanatic xenophobe, it's 33%/50% more.
When you get the expansion traditions, or purity if you have it, it goes up as well.

The main time it fails is if you get hemmed in early.

However, if you get hemmed in around, like, 2240:
1. You would have been even more hemmed in without ISD.
2. You grabbed all those systems and started profiting from them faster.
3. You are now better able to wage war, due to #2 and reduced claim cost (if you care) than before.

Yea and the techs too, which you can often squeeze out one extra 10% early on.

These claim reductions not only let you claim more, but also far deeper into enemy territory. This should not be underestimated as siezing a cruicial chokepoint then fortifying it can allow you to just take the isolated systems cheap and easy in the next war.
 

Badesumofu

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Getting hard to vote now. Which path you choose really depends on whether you went with say Mechanist/Mining Guilds, or Slaver Guilds/Mining Guilds. As both of those are solid paths to win the game and defeat the crisis, I think they are both excellent picks. ID is a no-brainer first pick in either nearly all or actually all situations. I personally find the ability to turn conquered people into Synths so they stop complaining about being conquered quite useful. So I'll regrettably downvote Psionic.

Interstellar Dominion: 26 (+1)
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 16
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 7 (-2)
 

Siri

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Interstellar Dominion: 26
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 14 (-2)
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 8 (+1)

I just think Psionic is better than Synthetics, and this is because of a few reasons. One is that it doesn't have the research investment that the Synthetic ascension path does. It has a little, but it's significantly less and the research for The Shroud is in a less important tech tree so the delay matters less. Another is that while the benefits of the various leader traits can be argued, I don't think it can be argued that the psionic admirals aren't much stronger than the synthetic ones, and I think this matters more for your overall chances of success against an x5 crisis.

The shroud is random, and you may not get exactly what you want out of it, but unless you're just monstrously unlucky you will get enough things to make it the better choice, even if you don't get the ideal rewards (notably, Instrument of Desire).
 
Last edited:

bunkerman

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damn the whole voidborne/master builders/megastructures got oblitereated i hoped to see at least one get through but oh well. now i am left with 3 choices none of which i particularly like

Interstellar Dominion: 24 (-2)
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 14
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 9 (+1)

out of these 3 i have to go by which is mroe important to an empire doing well and to be honest i have seen plenty empires work well without ID but havent seen any to function well without an ascension path and out the 2 left i like psionics more since they are comparatively strong but dont require as mcuh micro and dont hinder your population growth if you are building robots like synthetic does
 

Siri

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damn the whole voidborne/master builders/megastructures got oblitereated i hoped to see at least one get through but oh well. now i am left with 3 choices none of which i particularly like

Indeed, it's sad. They're probably my top fun perks, but I think it's fair nonetheless. I would have picked a different order for them to go out, but I can't really see them stay longer than this from a pure power level perspective. They're important to a certain playstyle but at least for me I couldn't use that as an argument to rate them much higher unless I think that particular playstyle is so much stronger than your other alternatives, and that's not the case.

out of these 3 i have to go by which is mroe important to an empire doing well and to be honest i have seen plenty empires work well without ID but havent seen any to function well without an ascension path and out the 2 left i like psionics more since they are comparatively strong but dont require as mcuh micro and dont hinder your population growth if you are building robots like synthetic does

I think you make a fair point, but I can't entirely agree with you. One reason is that while you can certainly play without ID, it doesn't mean you should. I think one of the biggest reasons people play without ID, but always pick an ascension path, is that the benefits of ID are not as immediately apparent as those of the ascensions, nor is it as fun a bonus. The second reason is that you need to pick one of the perks that require no other perks to have been picked, and your options here are very limited. Many of them are really bad outside roleplaying. Out of your options from the perks you HAVE to pick one of, ID is by far the best one. That's why I feel it should be number one, because everything after that you can argue about, but unless you're doing something wacky even though it is sub-optimal, ID should be in the build.
 

bunkerman

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@Siri well there wasnt anything specified about what kind of galaxy settings there are id argue that in low habitability galaxies voidborne is the single most important perk and it has decent use in higher habitability galaxies still but thats now gone anyway so probably no point discussing further

well the thread is about what perk helps you more in winning the game and beating the crisis if you look at it form the statistical perspective the fact that there is much more empires that win without ID than empires that win without an ascension path id say its fair to assume the ascension path is more important to the process. to make it clear i do think ID is extremely strong but we are in the top 3 now and the other 2 choices are also extremely strong. and yes its the best first pick alot of the time if for some reason it isnt its usually not worth picking it as 2nd or 3rd etc but with ascensions if you dont pick them immediately for some reason they still remain extremely strong as later picks.

EDIT: almost forgot to mention that ID has very limited usefulness for pacifists and instand total war civics
 
Last edited:

Siri

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@bunkerman I haven't played all that much low habitability so I can't speak with authority on it but I'd actually lean towards Voidborne being worse on low habitability than it is on high, as counterintuitive as that may sound. Not worse in the sense of "I wouldn't pick it", worse in the sense of "I would pick it later than I normally would". Low hab restricts your income, which means you'd dedicate a higher percentage of your total income towards habitat construction. On normal habitation it's fairly easy to get to a point where you can do both in terms of minerals, but on low hab I think you're better off building a bigger fleet with that army and claim more good territory. On low hab, ID also gets stronger because mining and research stations are a higher portion of your income, so grabbing more systems faster is more important.

What people do arguably doesn't impact how strong something is though. It just shows what peoples' perception of it is. As I said before I think it's more about how visible the bonus is in the game, and if people really don't pick ID that much (I don't really know, I have no statistical data myself) it's just because they don't realise the strength of it. Alternatively they do realise the strength but don't pick it because of rp reasons, whereas the ascension paths fit much better into rp choices so you'll end up with them almost all the time even if your choices are driven by your idea of the empire rather than powergaming. The third possibility is that they already have a sizeable discount to outpost cost and/or start with a Total War CB.

It's very true that the power of the perk is dependent on being picked first, as you say, but that power is high enough that unless you have a very good reason to not pick it first, you always should. Additionally, even if you should always pick an ascension path outside being a machine empire I'd still argue it loses a lot of relative power to ID simply because it's a bonus you activate later in the game, and earlier bonuses matter a lot more than late bonuses because growth is exponential.
 

Xexus

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bunkerman

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@Siri well i play most of my games on 0.25 habitability and from my experience it actually usually ends up in the point that habitats are actually more cost effective expansion than fleet and conquering, definitely influence wise since there more often than not are no habitable planets near the borders and mineralwise yes it would probably be cheaper but i think its generally agreed that influence limits your growth more than minerals and on top of that as you have less worlds to produce stuff it isnt that much about getting enough minerals to build them but more about getting enough energy and minerals to sustain their upkeep. recently i started playing with a mod that removes the 2 guaranteed planets nearby and in that its even more of a must pick but i guess thats besides the point since this thread isnt about mods but i think it probably shows how it will be in games with that setting after 2.2

i would argue many people overestimate ID and actually underestimate ascension paths because they simply never or almost never play without them and for the 1st pick vs later pick thing i am pretty sure at least first stage of an ascension path usually comes soon enough that it definitely gets to make a big impact on how your empire establishes itself. and as was pointed out before if its agreed that the best way to win is to grab as much territory as possible as soon as possible and all other ways to win are irrelevant then you pretty much end up with only the total war civics mattering since noone can compete with their landgrabbing ability at any point in the game thanks to cheaper outpost costs at start and free total war for when you meet your neighbors which ofcourse would make ID one of the weaker first picks

and for the reasons not to pick it besides pacifists and total war civics i would just name: slower tradition settings, more crowded galaxy and to some extent lower hyperlane density since that makes it easier for you to get boxed in by something that cheaper claims arent gonna help you against, simply said there are things that can easily shrink or completely erase the time when the perk is at its strongest and while it never is completely useless i would say that weakens it enough to loose out against the extremely strong perks that are the ascension paths

Edit: and for the noticability part i personally find it easier to see what helped you gain an advantage (like ID) than seeing what helped you keep it and exapand on it (for example ascension paths)
 
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Pointyearedgit

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well i play most of my games on 0.25 habitability and from my experience it actually usually ends up in the point that habitats are actually more cost effective expansion than fleet and conquering, definitely influence wise since there more often than not are no habitable planets near the borders and mineralwise yes it would probably be cheaper but i think its generally agreed that influence limits your growth more than minerals and on top of that as you have less worlds to produce stuff it isnt that much about getting enough minerals to build them but more about getting enough energy and minerals to sustain their upkeep. recently i started playing with a mod that removes the 2 guaranteed planets nearby and in that its even more of a must pick but i guess thats besides the point since this thread isnt about mods but i think it probably shows how it will be in games with that setting after 2.2

It's not just the 0.25, but the settings on how many empires spawn (with or without the guaranteed planets) and how empires are (or are not) clustered. The point was never that voidborne was bad, voidborne has earned it's high spot, but it is a situational perk that just doesn't *always* have utility and competes, to some degree, with early ascension paths. ID fits into just about any build, and gives you *more* options for your influence (similar to Executive Vigor) rather than an alternative method of translating influence into tiles. Still, you are right that voidborne is a good use of influence for low habitability in 2.1, second only to ringworlds (which taking MB will help you pump out anyways).

i would argue many people overestimate ID and actually underestimate ascension paths because they simply never or almost never play without them and for the 1st pick vs later pick thing i am pretty sure at least first stage of an ascension path usually comes soon enough that it definitely gets to make a big impact on how your empire establishes itself. and as was pointed out before if its agreed that the best way to win is to grab as much territory as possible as soon as possible and all other ways to win are irrelevant then you pretty much end up with only the total war civics mattering since noone can compete with their landgrabbing ability at any point in the game thanks to cheaper outpost costs at start and free total war for when you meet your neighbors which ofcourse would make ID one of the weaker first picks
[/USER]

I don't think people underestimate ascension paths at all, that's why they are in the top 3.

Here's the thing, ID just has usefulness for many different empire setups, that's why I think it should be top dog. The irony here is that while ID is not actually always a must pick (to be honest), it probably applies to more games than an *individual* ascension path, due to their mutual exclusivity. I play a large variety of empires, I'd say about ~70-80% of them are RP and the rest of them are min-max experiments on different galaxy settings and mods. While the RP ones aren't designed to be min-maxers, I definitely notice the lack of ID on empires who use conquest wars and galaxy settings where I can expand into large areas.

In a more min-max game, the minute I know I have few and/or far neighbors, or my neighbors are weak, I know I'm taking ID. Otherwise, I decide how hemmed in I will be in the early - mid game and perhaps swap to something like executive vigor or mastery of nature.

and for the reasons not to pick it besides pacifists and total war civics i would just name: slower tradition settings, more crowded galaxy and to some extent lower hyperlane density since that makes it easier for you to get boxed in by something that cheaper claims arent gonna help you against, simply said there are things that can easily shrink or completely erase the time when the perk is at its strongest and while it never is completely useless i would say that weakens it enough to loose out against the extremely strong perks that are the ascension paths

Edit: and for the noticability part i personally find it easier to see what helped you gain an advantage (like ID) than seeing what helped you keep it and exapand on it (for example ascension paths)

ID is not chosen instead of ascension paths, it is chosen with them. You always need one perk before you can grab an ascension path, and ID can be that perk. ID absolutely must be chosen as soon as possible to get value out of it, almost always a first pick or *maybe* second if you have low tech/unity costs.