Ascension Perk Elimination

[Mastikator]

Happy to see Voidborne outlasted Master Builders, but it's time for it to die now. ID is just useful with more empires, despite the fact that VB is a great perk when it applies.

It was perhaps a little unfair that VB and MB were not linked like the ascension paths, because they basically work together but its weird like the Synthetic Ascension path so I'm fine with it being dealer's choice (and I would vote TFiW higher than Synthetic Evolution in the case they were separate for similar reasons to MB and Voidborne).

We're in the endgame now, only the awesome perks have made it to this far. Nobody should be surprised Voidborn is in the top 5

 

[John Rusher]

We're in the endgame now, only the awesome perks have made it to this far. Nobody should be surprised Voidborn is in the top 5

I am suprised that interstellar dominion had made so far. If I knew that I would downvote it every time.

 

[James Fire]

Right up to the point when you can get the Total War CB

That assumes you do get it.

 

[John Rusher]

That assumes you do get it.

And you assume that you can get the first ascension perk while you can either declare war or claim new systems. And that you will need it at all. You can very easily have 1000 influence most of the time if you have your factions sorted out. Also technological ascendancy is better, because it increases the amount of influence that you can get, by letting you get influence techs.

 

[James Fire]

You can very easily have 1000 influence most of the time if you have your factions sorted out.

But then you're not expanding, and hence not trying to win the game and survive the crisis. False premise.

 

[PirateJack]

And you assume that you can get the first ascension perk while you can either declare war or claim new systems. And that you will need it at all. You can very easily have 1000 influence most of the time if you have your factions sorted out. Also technological ascendancy is better, because it increases the amount of influence that you can get, by letting you get influence techs.

You're doing it wrong, then. If you have influence, spend it on expanding. If you still have spare, spend it on edicts. If you still have spare, spend it on diplomacy.

There's always something to spend influence on.

 

[Mastikator]

I am suprised that interstellar dominion had made so far. If I knew that I would downvote it every time.

We get it. You hate interstellar dominion. You don't have to say it in literally every post.

 

[Silens]

I think it more risky to expand very far early on when I still have no clue what I might meet. Especially until the midgame when my fleets take a very long time to travel and my economy isn't solid enough. That's why I see Interstellar Dominion as high risk high reward perk. It might work, but not always.

The Colossus is something you choose when you're ready, when you already know everyone and when you have access to strong fortifications, big fleets, a stable economy, gateways and jump drives. Discarding the need to pay for conquest with influence will let you snowball very fast and very aggressively. And by then you also have the tech to protect and govern what you take.

And there is still the point that my influence is better invested in edicts than in something that I can also get for free. With the extra influence and Executive Vigor you can keep almost all of the edicts running all the time. That's a greater boost than 20% discount on something that is free with the right perk.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I think it more risky to expand very far early on when I still have no clue what I might meet. Especially until the midgame when my fleets take a very long time to travel and my economy isn't solid enough. That's why I see Interstellar Dominion as high risk high reward perk. It might work, but not always.

Does not compute.

Stuff's there whether you expand or not, and if you didn't expand you have less resources to meet it with.

 

[James Fire]

That's a greater boost than 20% discount on something that is free with the right perk.

Keep in mind that right perk is very much a late game one.

 

[Silens]

Does not compute.

Stuff's there whether you expand or not, and if you didn't expand you have less resources to meet it with.

Yes, but it makes a difference if I have to defend an empire that is 20 jumps wide or just 10. In the early stages of the game it is risky to expand too far. You might not only find a few weak empires to box in. Without a certain level of tech and economy it is a hassle to have too much territory. Great if it works, but due to the randomness of each galaxy also quite prone to failure.

You could say the Colossus is the conservative and safe approach to the very same problem that both perks try to solve.

Keep in mind that right perk is very much a late game one.

And you have good chances to live long enough if you avoid over-extension and all of its risks.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

I think it more risky to expand very far early on when I still have no clue what I might meet. Especially until the midgame when my fleets take a very long time to travel and my economy isn't solid enough. That's why I see Interstellar Dominion as high risk high reward perk. It might work, but not always.

The Colossus is something you choose when you're ready, when you already know everyone and when you have access to strong fortifications, big fleets, a stable economy, gateways and jump drives. Discarding the need to pay for conquest with influence will let you snowball very fast and very aggressively. And by then you also have the tech to protect and govern what you take.

And there is still the point that my influence is better invested in edicts than in something that I can also get for free. With the extra influence and Executive Vigor you can keep almost all of the edicts running all the time. That's a greater boost than 20% discount on something that is free with the right perk.

I like executive vigor too, and I understand the idea of waiting until late game to use the Colossus. The thing is, the Colossus is definitely *not* free as it is costing you a whole perk and a metric s-ton of minterals + a little fleet capacity. It saps your ability to win wars (outside of fortress planets), where ID leaves you influence to get more resources to win wars.

Edit: This presumes more early game conflicts with ID, obviously the Colossus saves late game influence.

 

[Mastikator]

Yes, but it makes a difference if I have to defend an empire that is 20 jumps wide or just 10. In the early stages of the game it is risky to expand too far. You might not only find a few weak empires to box in. Without a certain level of tech and economy it is a hassle to have too much territory. Great if it works, but due to the randomness of each galaxy also quite prone to failure.

You could say the Colossus is the conservative and safe approach to the very same problem that both perks try to solve.



And you have good chances to live long enough if you avoid over-extension and all of its risks.

Wide means more minerals so just make two or three fleets and station them near the border systems? Make a bastion and station them at the bastion, it actually makes a huge difference.

Secondly when it comes to conquering your next door neighbor are you really going to wait 100-150 years until you have colossus? If you have an equivalent fleet and ID you can have 20% more of his stuff now. Down the line you will have more tech and more traditions unlocked.

 

[serpentskirt]

Interstellar Dominion: 25
Galactic Wonders: 4 (-2)
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 14
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 14 (+1)

Let's balance things out.

 

[Silens]

The thing is, the Colossus is definitely *not* free as it is costing you a whole perk and a metric s-ton of minterals + a little fleet capacity. It saps your ability to win wars (outside of fortress planets), where ID leaves you influence to get more resources to win wars.

Edit: This presumes more early game conflicts with ID, obviously the Colossus saves late game influence.

Yes, but ID also costs a whole perk. So in that regard both are equal. And you bring up the mineral cost. I don't know your lategame economy, but in the later stages of the game I have more minerals than I need. But it seems you assume that I actually build the thing. No, all I need is the TW CB. With enough time and minerals I will build it, though, for the fun of accelerating genocide, but it isn't necessary. I don't think this is an issue at all.

Actually, ID also isn't free of its economic problems: grabbing territory in the early stages also costs minerals, which heavily strains your economy. Especially energy for upkeep can become a problem until you can build up some good energy planets. It usually takes some time until your investment not only pays off, but also generates profits. And until your situation is stable, a FP or an Advanced AI just might attack when you're not ready. Compact empires are not only setup faster and easier to defend, but also have an easier time making some friends for the time being. Growing too fast (especially through conquest) will isolate you diplomatically.

It all boils down to this: The goal of the game is to achieve a complete victory. We are just disagreeing on the best timing of when to choose the perk to do it.

ID is a quick landgrab in the early stages. You just hope that you don't run into someone who can ruin your day. The Colossus is the ultimate landgrab in the late stages, where you ruin everyone's day. For me it is the safer and thus superior choice. ID is great if it works, but as I said, it is a risk when you don't know who exactly is around you. You're not invincible early on.

Wide means more minerals so just make two or three fleets and station them near the border systems? Make a bastion and station them at the bastion, it actually makes a huge difference.

Secondly when it comes to conquering your next door neighbor are you really going to wait 100-150 years until you have colossus? If you have an equivalent fleet and ID you can have 20% more of his stuff now. Down the line you will have more tech and more traditions unlocked.

Wide means that you are unable to react in time should something go the wrong way. Wide means more territory, that means you need more minerals and time to develop everything. Building three fleets takes longer than building one fleet. Growing too big too fast is a risk.

And the answer is no, I don't wait 100 years until I eat my neighbors. But I gladly wait 100 years until I can declare Total War and eat half of a federation in one go. ID will let you take 20% more, TW CB will let you take it all with a 100% discount on influence cost and without having to wait for the war to end.

 

[James Fire]

No, all I need is the TW CB

Which requires that you build the Colossus.

Actually, ID also isn't free of its economic problems: grabbing territory in the early stages also costs minerals, which heavily strains your economy. Especially energy for upkeep can become a problem until you can build up some good energy planets. It usually takes some time until your investment not only pays off, but also generates profits.

What game are you playing? It's certainly not this one if you think it takes that long to get a system productive.

 

[Methone]

Interstellar Dominion: 25
Galactic Wonders: 2(-2)
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 14
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 15(+1)

Unless you're a Materialist Fool, Psi Ascension is quick, easy, and powerful even WITHOUT the Shroud Roulette. Galactic Wonders is just 'win more' for when you're facing anything short of the 5x Crisis.

 

[James Fire]

Interstellar Dominion: 25
Galactic Wonders: 2
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 15 (+1)
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 13 (-2)

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

IE : the more closed map is, the less use you will get from the perk.

Well, definitely agree with that.
I generally play default crowdedness, if you play above that or max... Well, if you have total war from the start ISD is useless, and considerably less useful even if you don't since other perks will let you more effectively wage war.

 

[Little Red]

I guess I'll finish Galactic Wonders off.
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Galactic Wonders: 0 (-2)
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 15
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 14 (+1)