Ascension Perk Elimination

[Hertzila]

EDIT: Nevermind, I see the another inconsistency.

EDIT 2: It would be a bit easier to follow if everyone would mention when they correct other's mistakes.

Sorry about that, I was in a bit of a hurry when writing that.

 

[Vonuggbin]

Executive Vigor 17
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 23
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 14
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Biological Ascension (Engineered Evolution + Evolutionary Mastery): 0 (-2) ELIMINATED
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 18
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22 (+1)

 

[PirateJack]

Executive Vigor 17
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 23
Voidborne: 22 (+1)
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 14 (-2)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 18
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

Voidborne is the best way to fuel your ever expanding fleet with its energy production buildings and if you're doing alright for energy it can get you a ton of research instead.

World Shaper is a lot less useful unless you already have a ton of energy spare, in which case you should be going back over your planets and turning a bunch of power plants into mines, because you're going to get a lot more out of those energy credits if you can afford more ships.

 

[Archon87]

Executive Vigor 18 (+1)
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 23
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 12 (-2)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 18
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

I've somehow managed to avoid duplicate voting thus far (though I did flip-flop once), but it's getting progressively harder.

Anyway, Executive Vigor allows you to get the most out of your influence, meaning you can run those good expensive edicts for much longer before having to spend 300 more influence. This is especially good if you have civics that reduce the cost of edicts.

And honestly, terraforming isn't as great as it could be. Granted, the Gaia world bonus is pretty nifty, but the sheer amount of energy and time that must be devoted to terraforming isn't really worth it when you have to spend a perk on it too.

 

[John Rusher]

Executive Vigor 18 (+1)
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 23
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 12 (-2)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 18
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

I've somehow managed to avoid duplicate voting thus far (though I did flip-flop once), but it's getting progressively harder.

Anyway, Executive Vigor allows you to get the most out of your influence, meaning you can run those good expensive edicts for much longer before having to spend 300 more influence. This is especially good if you have civics that reduce the cost of edicts.

And honestly, terraforming isn't as great as it could be. Granted, the Gaia world bonus is pretty nifty, but the sheer amount of energy and time that must be devoted to terraforming isn't really worth it when you have to spend a perk on it too.

Executive Vigor 16 (-2)*
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 23
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 12
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19 (+1)**
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

*Executive Vigor sucks. -50% cost of edicts?!?!? This is so bad i can't describe it.
**Synthetic Ascension is best thing you can get, and if you have problems getting it, then you should had picked Materialist and Mechanist. Seriously, it's easy to get, aspecialy the first perk - only needs you to get 1 tech of level 2, that is, droids, and a project to cyborgize your spiecies. It is worth to take for cyborgs alone, even if you don't pick synthetic evolution. Getting Cyborg spiecies of your own is great. Also robots get +2 to leader levels, and +5% to happines and +25% to ruling ethics attraction. Getting mechanical citizens always makes your whole nation vote for materialist faction anyway, because robots. And materialist is best ethic anyway, because +10% tech, and more likely robots. It's just reliable.

 

[klingonadmiral]

*Executive Vigor sucks. -50% cost of edicts?!?!? This is so bad i can't describe it.

Executive Vigor cuts cost by 33.3%.

100/10 = 10
100/15 = 6.666667

As I'm already posting, might as well get my vote of today in:

Executive Vigor 16
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 24 (+1)
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 10 (-2)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

As I basically always play xenophillic or robot-loving empires, I just never really saw the appeal of terraforming. It's certainly not worth an AP imho. (Imho the perk will also drop even further with Le Guin).

All things about TA have been said already. Great perk.

 

[John Rusher]

Executive Vigor cuts cost by 33.3%.

100/10 = 10
100/15 = 6.666667

As I'm already posting, might as well get my vote of today in:

Executive Vigor 16
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 24 (+1)
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 10 (-2)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 19
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

As I basically always play xenophillic or robot-loving empires, I just never really saw the appeal of terraforming. It's certainly not worth an AP imho. (Imho the perk will also drop even further with Le Guin).

All things about TA have been said already. Great perk.

Still crap. In fact, even more crap.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Voidborne is the best way to fuel your ever expanding fleet with its energy production buildings and if you're doing alright for energy it can get you a ton of research instead.

World Shaper is a lot less useful unless you already have a ton of energy spare, in which case you should be going back over your planets and turning a bunch of power plants into mines, because you're going to get a lot more out of those energy credits if you can afford more ships.

World Shaper costs 0 influence and and boosts planet production by 10%, that's 10% more minerals for your fleet. Voidborne costs minerals *and* influence, so I would say World Shaper is flat out better unless you aren't pulling in enough planets into your empire because of RP or galaxy settings (in which case, yes, voidborne is great).

Executive Vigor cuts cost by 33.3%.

100/10 = 10
100/15 = 6.666667

Not that simple, there are other cost reductions and duration extensions that are quite common (like technologies).

*Executive Vigor sucks. -50% cost of edicts?!?!? This is so bad i can't describe it.

Still crap. In fact, even more crap.

If you've never used it to its full potential (especially the pre-nerf 100% extension), then you won't understand how good it is.

Executive Vigor 16
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 22(-2)
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 10
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 20(+1)
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

I'd like to directly compare TA to TFiW, TA would just stack a bonus that is already everywhere in the materialist ethos, from the ethic itself to their edict to their unique living standards. The marginal value of TA becomes quite low in this case, whereas TFiW gives you +33% build speed on robots which is pop growth, which means more of an early/mid game economy, which leads to victory. Cybernetics are pricey, as they cost valuable engineering research time, but they make up for it with an incredibly useful habitability bonus.

This is even more pronounced if droids are rushed as a mechanist, this perk is a must pick after MoN, EV, or ID.

Edit: removed a stray -2

 

[John Rusher]

World Shaper costs 0 influence and and boosts planet production by 10%, that's 10% more minerals for your fleet. Voidborne costs minerals *and* influence, so I would say World Shaper is flat out better unless you aren't pulling in enough planets into your empire because of RP or galaxy settings (in which case, yes, voidborne is great).



Not that simple, there are other cost reductions and duration extensions that are quite common (like technologies).




If you've never used it to its full potential (especially the pre-nerf 100% extension), then you won't understand how good it is.

Executive Vigor 16
Interstellar Dominion: 25
Technological Ascendancy: 22(-2)
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 10 (-2)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 20(+1)
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

I'd like to directly compare TA to TFiW, TA would just stack a bonus that is already everywhere in the materialist ethos, from the ethic itself to their edict to their unique living standards. The marginal value of TA becomes quite low in this case, whereas TFiW gives you +33% build speed on robots which is pop growth, which means more of an early/mid game economy, which leads to victory. Cybernetics are pricey, as they cost valuable engineering research time, but they make up for it with an incredibly useful habitability bonus.

This is even more pronounced if droids are rushed as a mechanist, this perk is a must pick after MoN, EV, or ID.

I agree with the rest of what you say, but I still disagree on Executive vigor. You can win whole game without using edicts once.

 

[Mastikator]

**Synthetic Ascension is best thing you can get, and if you have problems getting it, then you should had picked Materialist and Mechanist. Seriously, it's easy to get, aspecialy the first perk - only needs you to get 1 tech of level 2, that is, droids, and a project to cyborgize your spiecies. It is worth to take for cyborgs alone, even if you don't pick synthetic evolution. Getting Cyborg spiecies of your own is great. Also robots get +2 to leader levels, and +5% to happines and +25% to ruling ethics attraction. Getting mechanical citizens always makes your whole nation vote for materialist faction anyway, because robots. And materialist is best ethic anyway, because +10% tech, and more likely robots. It's just reliable.

Apparently they're removing the +20% everything on synths in 2.2, which (when combined with the ability to make everyone a synth) is what made it so powerful.
In 2.1 I would absolutely agree that Synthetic Evolution is a lot better than Transcendence because synths are overall super awesome and take almost no micro to get that way (which is a huge benefit that should not be understated, in MP anything that requires you to pause the game is a weakness rather than a hassle).
In 2.2 well, RIP my favorite ascension perk :/

 

[John Rusher]

Apparently they're removing the +20% everything on synths in 2.2, which (when combined with the ability to make everyone a synth) is what made it so powerful.
In 2.1 I would absolutely agree that Synthetic Evolution is a lot better than Transcendence because synths are overall super awesome and take almost no micro to get that way (which is a huge benefit that should not be understated, in MP anything that requires you to pause the game is a weakness rather than a hassle).
In 2.2 well, RIP my favorite ascension perk :/

We're voting for 2.1 right now, 2.2 is not yet out.
EDIT: Also, producing synths will be less of a hassle now, it will be just like regular pops, except you need factories for producing robots.
EDIT2: As to why 2.1 - well new ascension perks are not included, so OBVIOUSLY.

 

[Mastikator]

We're voting for 2.1 right now, 2.2 is not yet out.
EDIT: Also, producing synths will be less of a hassle now, it will be just like regular pops, except you need factories for producing robots.
EDIT2: As to why 2.1 - well new ascension perks are not included, so OBVIOUSLY.

Yeah but why bother building them if they suck?

 

[John Rusher]

Yeah but why bother building them if they suck?

Because they have lower housing requirements, and max habitability, which means you can build double the amount of robots that you have biological pops. Basicaly they're quantity over quality now i guess.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Because they have lower housing requirements, and max habitability, which means you can build double the amount of robots that you have biological pops. Basicaly they're quantity over quality now i guess.

The housing isn't guaranteed except for slave synths, Wiz said they will demand full housing when you give them rights (and you will have to when ascending).

Honestly, I'm not sure how it will work out, it really depends on how the different living standards interact with them. The 100% habitability, everyone in the technologist faction, and not needing any food is still good ... but it will have to compete with the other ascensions and various versions of robot slavers.

 

[John Rusher]

The housing isn't guaranteed except for slave synths, Wiz said they will demand full housing when you give them rights (and you will have to when ascending).

Honestly, I'm not sure how it will work out, it really depends on how the different living standards interact with them. The 100% habitability, everyone in the technologist faction, and not needing any food is still good ... but it will have to compete with the other ascensions and various versions of robot slavers.

Since having low habitability increases housing needs, they will have still less housing needs because of the habitability.

 

[RedPearlA]

Executive Vigor 16
Interstellar Dominion: 26 (+1)
Technological Ascendancy: 22
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 8 (-2)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 21
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 20
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

More territory more resources.

As a builder it is better to build habitats then to terraform your worlds into Gaia worlds.
As a conqueror It is better to build more military then to terraform your worlds into Gaia worlds.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Since having low habitability increases housing needs, they will have still less housing needs because of the habitability.

True, but world shaper (for Gaia), ecumenopolises, habitats, and ring worlds will make this eventually irrelevant. Synthetic empires will still be able to get up and running very quickly, though.

 

[Mastikator]

Because they have lower housing requirements, and max habitability, which means you can build double the amount of robots that you have biological pops. Basicaly they're quantity over quality now i guess.

No they very much do not. Free citizen synths use 1 housing, same as free citizen pops at 100% habitability. You can not enslave synths if you take synthetic evolution. Without the 20% bonus to everything they are objectively worse than bio-pops since bio pops can be psychic and benefit MORE from living on gaia worlds than synths do.
Based on the dev diaries and the live streams I can't see how synthetic evolution could ever compete with transcendence

 

[metalosse]

Executive Vigor 16
Interstellar Dominion: 26
Technological Ascendancy: 22
Voidborne: 22
Master Builders: 18
World Shaper: 9 (+1)
Colossus Project: 1
Galactic Wonders: 19 (-2)
Synthetic Ascension (The Flesh is Weak + Synthetic Evolution): 20
Psionic Ascension (Mind over Matter + Transcendence): 22

+ 10% multiplicative resources is probably stronger than most ascensions.

Galactic wonders are pretty much useless compared to habitats, their only benefit over habitats is that they cost less influence.

 

[Retry]

World Shaper costs 0 influence and and boosts planet production by 10%, that's 10% more minerals for your fleet. Voidborne costs minerals *and* influence, so I would say World Shaper is flat out better unless you aren't pulling in enough planets into your empire because of RP or galaxy settings (in which case, yes, voidborne is great).

That 10% is a minimum value for the world in question, too. Bio-pops gain +5% happiness for free, which affects resource production when over 60% (at a rate of .5% per 1% happiness). And the happiness bonus is also multiplicative just like the Gaia planet boost.

Since Gaias have 100% habitability, if you're terraforming a large planet with much lower habitability, you're going to be raking in a lot more resources since habitability lower than 100% affects both raw resource production and happiness, which also affects resource production.

At its most extreme, say I have a Tomb World colonized with 20% habitability, resulting in -20% happiness and -20% additive resource production. Say my pop has a value of 80 due to factions or whatever pre-habitability, so it now has 60% happiness.

If I terraform the tomb world to Gaia, it becomes a 100% habitability planet (0% happiness and 0% additive resource production penalty). Being Gaia, the pops have +5% happiness too for a net happiness of 85%, which translates to a 12.5% multiplicative bonus to resource production.

So once terraforming is complete, I basically immediately exchanged my -20% additive resource malus to a +22.5% multiplicative resource bonus. And the pops will breed much more swiftly on the planet too.