As VICTORIA 3 (and Paradox games in general) doesn't show the poles it should use a Equirectangular projection map [Petition to the dev team]

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Ferrous Will

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...wut

How... how do you think physical globes in real life are made?
He's right you know

Edit: Should probably clarify this. The moment you bent the flatshapes it's no longer "flat" in the mathematical sense. You have exited euclidean geometry and into non-euclidean geometry. Which is why projections are a thing, it's a ( some may say futile ) labor in trying to map a non-euclidean sphere unto a euclidean plane
 
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...wut

How... how do you think physical globes in real life are made?

Because right now province adjacencies are calculated from a png map of provinces with raster adjacency. Globe mapping would most easily require either predefined province adjacencies or a switch to vector mapping of provinces, both of which are undesirable for at the very least modding and ease of use purposes.
Okay, so it turns out I don't actually know what I'm talking about. Consider my previous opinions withdrawn.
 
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Ferrous Will

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Okay, so it turns out I don't actually know what I'm talking about. Consider my previous opinions withdrawn.
You weren't completely wrong, just the words used is not precise.
 
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I am wondering at what point paradox will adopt a google maps type of projection where zooming in flattens out the map and zooming out turns it into a globe. It would fit especially well for games like Hearts of Iron.

Imagine zooming out and the game turns into of these:
1623166513720.png
 
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Deathknight15

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I think it would be useful if you told about this in more detail. The globe is such a common suggestion for every game, I think a lot of people are curious to know the downsides of it. Obviously it requires reworking the engine on quite a deep level, but putting that aside (let's say you're coding a new engine from scratch for the sake of argument), what are some downsides?

How do you define borders with a globe? Do you use a 2d map? Doesn't that just move the projection problem down a level? Now you have a 2d image projected onto a globe, actually increasing the distortion (or creating massive waste in your image files if you distort the image file instead). If you use some kind of data file that is not laid out like a 2d image, or with vectors, then how do you manipulate it? Probably with a custom editor or tool, which you now have to develop and maintain. Of course if you do that now you don't get to use any of the VERY IMPORTANT image based masking and shader tricks that Paradox undoubtedly uses, at least not without a lot of extra leg work.

The best method I came up for predefined maps is using a Cube Map, normally used in reflections, to basically graft the faces of a cube onto a sphere, and base province delineations from the pixels of the faces of the cube. This allows you to partially treat the sphere as a series of 6 different 2d maps, and use a lot of the 2d techniques on them. Of course they break in a nightmarishly annoying way at the seams (edges) of the faces...

Theoretically you could export these to 2d images but they would be almost impossible to image edit like Paradox province maps because they are flipped and cut off in unintuitive ways.


With a globe the surface you are viewing is obviously spherical, this causes many problems with the plethora of graphical techniques used in games like these. Instead of using relatively simple 2d texturing techniques and shaders, you now have to develop an entire array of, some basically brand new, 3d spherical versions. Texturing a sphere is a very annoying problem (if you want pretty art textures you have to develop techniques with a coordinate system that can take 2d textures and graft them onto a spherical surface. This almost guarantees ugly distortions or weird texture flips which you can only minimize), and using dynamic shaders to create interesting effects is the same problem, exponentially more difficult. Seriously some of the new versions of existing techniques are many times harder to implement and also perform much worse without specialized optimizations, even then are never as fast as the simple 2d/flat 3d versions. A lot of times they look much worse too.


Some clever vector based graphics programming might solve some of these issues but that is way too gigabrain for me.


Like I said these are probably all solvable, or at least mitigatable, issues, especially for professional graphics programmers, which I am not. Still I hope you get an idea of why it might be a lot harder than you think.


For paradox they would probably have to overhaul their entire engine. This might cost them as much as developing an entire new game, and for a very unclear benefit for the games they currently produce. You don't need the poles in their current games.
 
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Alfred Dreyfus

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Why is it my thread has so many dislikes but almost no one is explaining why the dislike it? It just seems like people from USA, Canada, UK, Sweden, Russia, etc don't want their countries to have a more accurate size in the map.

Equirectangular projection map is by far the best option: it is a flat map with little distortion of the shapes, and it gives the most accurate land size and distances for all the countries displayed in the game.
 
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Ferrous Will

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Why is it my thread has so many dislikes but almost no one is explaining why the dislike it? It just seems like people from USA, Canada, UK, Sweden, Russia, etc don't want their countries to have a more accurate size in the map.

Equirectangular projection map is by far the best option: it is a flat map with little distortion of the shapes, and it gives the most accurate land size and distances for all the countries displayed in the game.
it's both a) preference for familiarity, and b) the opportunity cost of changing the projection for questionable gain.

Changing the map is not a free action, it will cost man-hour. Time most likely better spent in other stuff.
 
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Ferrous Will

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How do you define borders with a globe? Do you use a 2d map? Doesn't that just move the projection problem down a level? Now you have a 2d image projected onto a globe, actually increasing the distortion.
It really just depends on how the UV-mapping is done. The pixel counts might become uneven between locations, which might become an issue unless it's processed out of it somehow, but I can't think of a reason it couldn't be done with, say, Mercator as the source texture. How good it would look like or if it's actually feasible, I can't say, but it's not an impossible task.
 

DesNibelungen

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Equirectangular projection map is by far the best option: it is a flat map with little distortion of the shapes, and it gives the most accurate land size and distances for all the countries displayed in the game.

The question you haven't answered is why this projection is better for a computer game like V3. That's all that matters. The merits of various map projections only matter to the extent that they support V3 gameplay. That's it.
 
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Alfred Dreyfus

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The question you haven't answered is why this projection is better for a computer game like V3. That's all that matters. The merits of various map projections only matter to the extent that they support V3 gameplay. That's it.
I have explained in the OP, but I'll say it again:

Equirectangular projection reduces a lot the size of the far North territories like North Canada, Greenland, North of Scandinavia or North of Siberian Russia, by actually giving a more accurate size of them. This territories are cold deserts with almost no population, and are also part of the top edge of the game's map, so there is no need to artificially make them huge like Mercator or Miller projections do.

So Equirectangular projection map gives the advantage of not only better map gameplay, but more realistic immersion, the only disadvantage is a little more distortion in the shape of this far North territories in the top edge of the map, that's all.
 

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How is "The bigger disadvantage of [the equirectangular projection] is that it has a lot of distortion in the North and South poles, but since Paradox games doesn't use them because there are no countries there, it doesn't matter," different to "The bigger disadvantage of the Mercator projetion is that it has a lot of distortion in the North and South poles, but since Paradox games doesn't use them because there are no countries there, it doesn't matter?"
The Mercator very significantly distorts the areas where most gameplay happens. Even if you’re starting as Brazil and have no ambitions overseas except in equatorial Africa, you’d still notice Argentina.

One argument in favor was that the Mercator was in wide use in this time period, and the game tries to present its interface as a map spread out on some world leader’s table. Zooming close in onto a vintage spinning globe-atlas would be attractive too. People didn’t draw war plans on them, but Paradox long ago abandoned the conceit of moving counters on the map and now displays 3-D animations.
 

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Lorehead

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To address the most serious technical objection, I think a game that displays a globe would load the borders from a map in UV-space. Modders could edit this, just as easily as they do today if not more so.

It would be most elegant as a vector graphic, since this allows map designers to work in whatever projection is convenient, and if necessary have the game convert to a different coordinate system internally, when the map is loaded. It also lets the game generate the textures at the optimal size for the GPU. This is no more difficult for a modder to work with than a PNG. It allows for day and night cycles that look much better than the ones in HOI4, and much more accurate movement arrows. It does make implementing the game engine harder, but the programmers at Paradox are very good.

The game could, though, still read in map data as a PNG and convert to a texture map at the same resolution, to wrap around a globe.
 
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Lorehead

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The other technical objection I sometimes hear is that you can’t zoom out to see more than half the map. You actually could, if you render the globe in front of a stereographic projection on the wall behind it, but you shouldn’t really need to. You move units from Canada to South Africa by selecting the units, moving the map to Africa, and right-clicking.
 
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