As someone who stopped playing this game long ago, My opinion about sprawl changes

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Gethsemani

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No one who loves playing first person shooters or other genres far away from 4x games will enjoy this game... just look what happened to BF2042... they tried to cater to the battle royal crowd, stabing BF Vets right in the heart and failed miserably... its not about to cater to die-hard Grognards only but to cater to people who love playing 4x games... and those people are used to invest a lot of time into a game... and BTW you completely ignored the part with the difficulties i have talked about... those people who you talk about have the option for easy mode... THEY CANT FAIL!!![
My current rotation of games that I play weekly is World of Warships, Grim Dawn, State of Decay 2, Call of Duty: Vanguard and Stellaris. So yeah, you can absolutely love FPS games and still play 4X games. The main thing scaring people off of 4x games is that they are opaque, rules dense and often provide abysmal feedback (something that the PDX podcast talked about a few times) and making them more accessible, not necessarily easy, lets people invest.

Because the issue is not about failing, the issue is about feeling as if the game is being unfair, cheating or punishing you for something you couldn't know was wrong. it is the Dark Souls Appeal: A game can be absolutely brutal, but as long as the player thinks the smackdown was fair they'll come back. If they think the game just shafted them for no reason they'll play something else.
To make an approachable game? Dude have you read what i have written? I have said that Stellaris v1.0 was one of the most approachable paradox games ever... or at least Stellaris pre 2.0... NOW!!! IT IS NOT ANYMORE... the devs vision is clearly not to make it as approachable as possible but to milk the game with DLCs before Stellaris 2, hopefully, will be released...
The Paradox business model is to iterate and add features (thus upping complexity) with every DLC to keep people playing. Yes, it means more of a rules shock when a new player starts the game but that doesn't necessarily mean it is less accessible. If the game has good onboarding complexity doesn't mean less accessibility. And with many PDX games that are on their 3rd or later year of life, it is prohibitively expensive to buy the base game and all DLC at once, which means most people will start with the base game and a few DLCs and then add on more if they like the game, thus providing a ramping complexity. Take it from someone who was a late adopter of EUIV.
And again you have ignored what i have written... the devs clearly have no vision... the devs don't understand their own game mechanics otherwise it would be a far more balanced game... the devs might do indeed stuff they like... but they slap that stuff onto a pile of other mechanics breaking them, or making them not really important... the galactic community is a great idea but badly implemented... more espionage is great but you can ignore it, it is not important... they said we make diplomacy great again... it still really isn't... the tile system was APPROACHABLE but instead of expanding it, they dropped it and replaced it with a mechanic that again broke other stuff... its not about an ideal game... its about to cater to those who will probably play the game for the longest time and stick around... not to do stupid stuff to attract people who will drop the game anyway, even if it is catered to them... after a short time...

Imagine one of the bosses saying: Lets try to grab some animal crossing fans that game is booming... implement some sci-fi animals you can pet and feed and stuff...
Dev: But sir we are working on an AI overhaul people complaining about our retarded bots... we cant do both...
Boss: Do the animal stuff!!!

Do you think that such things would be a good idea??? But i hope with the old, new head at paradox their games might improve again... hopefully...
I mean, this is all just fluff. You say the devs have no vision, that they don't understand their own mechanics etc. but where's your proof? And before we go at this again, "I don't like the direction Stellaris is headed" is not proof that the devs lack vision, don't understand the mechanics or are out to shaft long term players. It is just proof that you disagree with the vision and direction of Stellaris.

There's a hundred different reasons why a rework or new mechanic comes out half-baked, buggy or incompatible with other systems but they can all be summed up as: Game development is really hard, especially in a corporate environment where the developers are expected to stick to budget and make a profit. I am absolutely certain the devs realize that espionage (for example) is a pretty lackluster mechanic right now, but we don't know why that is. Maybe a more complex espionage mechanic was too buggy, or had too much performance impact or wasn't very fun. Maybe they ran out of time and had to rush to implement something because the intended mechanic wasn't ready (also known as the Cyberpunk 2077 way of implementing AI). It is really easy for us as armchair game devs to sit around and fantasize about how much better Stellaris would be with our awesome ideas, but there's a massive difference between our dreams and what is feasible to create within in the confines of the game development process. Constrained as it is by harsh realities like economy, team size, game engine limitations, development tool limitations and imperfect code creating unforeseen bugs and problems.
 
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The underlying problem here is the snowball.

You could theoretically make the most entertaining rebellion system imaginable, saying goodbye to rebel whack-a-mole and introducing a system with enough drama, intrigue and treachery to make Crusader Kings blush.

And it would *still* be frustrating, because the empire that suffered a rebellion would be left at a disadvantage against its more stable neighbour. Even if you were just short a few alloys after squishing the separatists, the remorseless pressure of the ever-present Stellaris snowball magnifies every little setback until, over time, you are at an insurmountable disadvantage.

You could only really have rebellions as part of a wider anti-snowball design, with catch-up mechanisms for the left-behind, extra content for those facing an existential threat, and ways to neuter the expansion of the bigger fish that weren't considered "punishing success".

Alternatively - incorporate some of this stuff into the optional game rules, so that both the roleplayers and the strategy purists could be somewhat satisfied...
 
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You say the devs have no vision, that they don't understand their own mechanics etc. but where's your proof?
But the person who said that is right, or at least it would appear he is.

Just look at the game in its current format:
  • It's lost all the initial FTL variants that made the game unique.
  • It's lost any semblance of Tall vs Wide gameplay.
  • There is barely any distinctiveness in Empires - Far too many empires/builds feel the same - Empire types need more distinctiveness and interesting gameplay options.
  • The devs seem to have no sense of balance. Despite hundreds of options to choose from during empire creation, some elements are so imbalanced that there are less than a handful of ways to play 'optimally'. More variety that does not make you feel like your nerfing yourself by selecting them, should be a thing.
  • AI - The AI is a joke
  • Look at the more recent additions? Subterfuge/spying? This was a hugely anticipated feature, everyone expected the typical sci-fi tropes you expected when you think about covert operations in a sci-fi setting - but no... yet again, it just felt like the development team did half a job and the impact on gameplay is underwhelming and minimal. You can have entire playthroughs, never touch intrigue and you won't even notice it.
 
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fourteenfour

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I come to see changes about the game time to time and I see this change got people upset. I'm here to say Empire management is part of the reason I stopped playing this game. It was TOO DAMN EASY!!!:mad:

When this game came out, it promised to simulate the troubles of managing an empire as it grew. And back in the day, they fulfilled that promise. Big empires would have to deal with rebellions, unhappy pops, and factions changes. This is what they sold us. But slowly after the years, that aspect of the game has been watered down to slight resource inefficiency. I have seen no rebellion in this game since before 2.0 I think. Back in the day, it was none stop action. You get a big empire and start to slack? BAM!!! You lose a world to a rebel force. or slave revolt.

Even with these sprawl changes, it doesn't fulfil the promises the made on this game years ago.:rolleyes:

No they don't. No one wants to work on building an empire only for it to fall apart for seemingly random reasons. Let alone Gestalts would never have this issue and they already have many advantages.

The difference now is that instead of it being easy to manage sprawl you are given no means to actually manage it. Its just an ever increasing penalty.

Simply put, borrowing words from a classic movie

The only winning move is not to play

In effect the only winning move is not to play a 4x game as a 4x game.
  • Expand and your penalized
  • Exploit and your penalized
  • Exterminate, well you can kill them all but if you conquer them you are penalized and big time
So my favorite parts of 4x games are penalized each time I do them. I can still explore but that runs out of steam pretty quick. About the only want I can conquer without nuking my empire is to fight wars to make my opponent a vassal.
 
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No they don't. No one wants to work on building an empire only for it to fall apart for seemingly random reasons. Let alone Gestalts would never have this issue and they already have many advantages.

Unrest was something we could manage in 1.x, it wasn't just random.

What I'd like the game to give me is some indication of unsafe ("you should do something"), moderately safe (minimal cost), pretty safe (moderate cost), and then totally safe (high cost). Then risk-vs-resource expenditure is in my hands again.


Gestalts should definitely face Deviance challenges when their empire grows too large. They started as an independent planetary hivemind, they should face the risk of their planets also becoming independent hiveminds.

Perhaps distance from the Overmind causes a reduction in productivity, so hiveminds are limited by galactic topology rather than by population sprawl -- until Gateways, at which point they can eat everyone everywhere at 100% efficiency.
 

Ludaire

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i think being able to increase pop growth when you ascend a planet in some way could help. in theory, playing tall you should be able to ascend a higher percentage of your planets, and be able to ascend them higher.
Ascension would need to work differently. Unity scales up as you grow just like science. So while the cost goes up, so does the output. Or at least I'm assuming that the cost of planetary ascension goes up with sprawl. I'm not totally clear on that. Either way, an empire with double the sprawl and double the unity output should be able to ascend the same number of planets or more. It's a smaller proportion, but it's the amount of growth you add, not the proportion of planets that matters.

This is honestly the problem with what most people call "tall." Often, what they actually mean is "small." If you have fewer pops, fewer planets, and are generally smaller in every way than another empire, you shouldn't be competitive with them. Rubber banding mechanics are good, but equalizing every empire regardless of size and success is not. Tall needs to be a different kind of big, not be a strategy where you doing nothing can remain competitive to someone actively expanding and conquering. You need to be expanding in a different way; otherwise, it becomes a game where a player who sits there twiddling their thumbs and one who actively plays the game are competitive with each other.

Which is why I think focusing on more penalties for wide strategies is the wrong aspect of the game to focus on. The problem is that tall expansion only exists in the form of having the same number of colonies spread across fewer systems. What people seem to want (or at least the sane version), the same number of pops spread across fewer planets, isn't made possible by the game mechanics.

If ascension adds growth while costing influence, so using it meant you had less influence for claims or habitats, that provides a real tall choice.

Direct correlation between growth and number of planets is a factor that leads to increased disparity, but it is not the only one
I disagree. Growth is *the* factor that makes the difference because all the other things you mention favor wide because they are based on the number of pops you have. Pops are the fundamental unit of power in Stellaris. That's why any strategy that cripples your growth without giving you an alternate way to grow your population is bad. It's why using robots is always better than not using robots. It's why wide is better than tall.

I think this is overall a good thing. Having a common ground that forms the baseline power of every empire gives a useful starting point, and you can then focus on how all the different strategies use and distribute those pops. You can also introduce smaller variations that don't throw things totally out of whack, such as a few 10-20% growth modifiers in one direction or another in exchange for other advantages/disadvantages. That's where I think asymmetry is best used, not trying to make the number of pops fundamentally asymmetric. Trying to balance the game such that an empire with 500 pops is competitive with 1,000 pops means that you need to shift that unit of power to something else. Or you need to make the game so that doing nothing can potentially be better than engaging with the game mechanics to expand your power, which is a terrible direction to go in my opinion.
 
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Gethsemani

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But the person who said that is right, or at least it would appear he is.
Did you read the last paragraph of my post? Because pretty much your entire list falls under that.
It's lost all the initial FTL variants that made the game unique.
It was also impossible to balance and made fortresses largely pointless. Warp was the obvious beginners choice, Hyperlanes was a trap choice and wormhole was God Tier Optimal. It was unique, sure, but it was also a design choice that would never allow itself to be balanced. A good wormhole would never let their fleets get caught and could attack you pretty much anywhere in the mid-game. The change to Hyperlanes only was bad from a choice perspective but absolutely right from a balance perspective.
It's lost any semblance of Tall vs Wide gameplay.
It never really had it. As this very thread attests to, it is a tough nut to crack and has been an issue ever since 1.0.
  • There is barely any distinctiveness in Empires - Far too many empires/builds feel the same - Empire types need more distinctiveness and interesting gameplay options.
What would you consider distinctiveness? Because I find that the difference between Pacificst, Xenophobe, Megacorp, Gestalt and Militarist to be pretty big, especially when civics come into play. This is entirely subjective and harkens back to the "I don't like the direction Stellaris is headed"-line of criticism. Could it be more diverse? yes. Could it be less? Absolutely.
  • The devs seem to have no sense of balance. Despite hundreds of options to choose from during empire creation, some elements are so imbalanced that there are less than a handful of ways to play 'optimally'. More variety that does not make you feel like your nerfing yourself by selecting them, should be a thing.
You do realize that the devs have been explicit about not all choices being about optimum play but that many exist for RP purposes or self-imposed challenges? If you're the kind of player to crank up to Grand Admiral, x25 Crisis Strength then of course everything will be samey, because you're essentially forcing the game to be all about optimizing to overcome a ridiculous challenge.
AI - The AI is a joke
Well, it is good that they are continually working on it and has acknowledged the issue then, isn't it? Never mind that I can't think of many 4X games with great AI and compared to dumpster fires like Humankind, the Stellaris AI feels pretty good.
Look at the more recent additions? Subterfuge/spying? This was a hugely anticipated feature, everyone expected the typical sci-fi tropes you expected when you think about covert operations in a sci-fi setting - but no... yet again, it just felt like the development team did half a job and the impact on gameplay is underwhelming and minimal. You can have entire playthroughs, never touch intrigue and you won't even notice it.
So you didn't read my entire post? Seeing as how I explicitly brought up espionage as an example of why this particular feature ended up landing like a wet fart. There are plenty of possible (and more likely) reasons as to why espionage is terrible besides "the devs are sucky suckfaces of suck".
 
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The underlying problem here is the snowball.

You could theoretically make the most entertaining rebellion system imaginable, saying goodbye to rebel whack-a-mole and introducing a system with enough drama, intrigue and treachery to make Crusader Kings blush.

And it would *still* be frustrating, because the empire that suffered a rebellion would be left at a disadvantage against its more stable neighbour.
In a situation where you have two equivalently powerful empires each following equivalent policies they would both be experiencing rebellions to an equivalent degree. If there is a way to mitigate or prevent rebellions it would come at a cost comparable to allowing the rebellion to go ahead. So successful strategies would be playing a small stable empire, a large, stable, empire that invests a lot of its resources into staying that way, or an empire that goes through boom and bust cycles of taking over neighbors, exploiting their resources for as long as you can, and then releasing/losing the rowdy ones when they get to be too much trouble. Or a mix, releasing the rowdy planets and keeping the happy ones etc.

If you have a situation where two equivalently sized empires are acting similarly and one is experiencing rebellions and the other isn't then there's been a design failure somewhere.
 
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TheRevanchist25

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Also from Wiz

"This is called 'rubber-band mechanics' and is generally a very, very bad idea. Players are not dumb and will understand perfectly well that they are simply being arbitrarily punished for being successful, removing all causation between their actions and the game's consequences. It's probably among the worst possible ways to handle internal unrest and late-game challenge, as far as I'm concerned."

Me, looking at new Sprawl systems and it's divisive reception: Welp, that's amusing.
 
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I disagree. Growth is *the* factor that makes the difference because all the other things you mention favor wide because they are based on the number of pops you have. Pops are the fundamental unit of power in Stellaris. That's why any strategy that cripples your growth without giving you an alternate way to grow your population is bad. It's why using robots is always better than not using robots. It's why wide is better than tall.

I think this is overall a good thing. Having a common ground that forms the baseline power of every empire gives a useful starting point, and you can then focus on how all the different strategies use and distribute those pops. You can also introduce smaller variations that don't throw things totally out of whack, such as a few 10-20% growth modifiers in one direction or another in exchange for other advantages/disadvantages. That's where I think asymmetry is best used, not trying to make the number of pops fundamentally asymmetric. Trying to balance the game such that an empire with 500 pops is competitive with 1,000 pops means that you need to shift that unit of power to something else. Or you need to make the game so that doing nothing can potentially be better than engaging with the game mechanics to expand your power, which is a terrible direction to go in my opinion.

As important as the growth system is, it is only a part of the whole. The snowballing problem extends beyond it. That's why the growth can't be fixed in isolation.

For example, the idea of the tall investing into the growth on its limited planets is a good one on paper, but it is unlikely to achieve its goals. If this investment tool remains symmetrical and available for everyone, it would mean that the wide would also have access to this tool. Since the wide would get the required resources faster just by harvesting the empty systems, it would invest faster and get rewards faster. That's how yet another snowball would start.

Even if somehow the numbers would be balanced across the board, you would also need to completely redesign the planetary system. While the new tool may make both the tall and the wide equally overpopulated, the tall would very fast hit the limit on districts and buildings and there would not be enough jobs to maintain parity. Habitats are not going to help much because of how small and expensive those are compared to the wide's regular planets.
 

Ryika

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Also from Wiz

"This is called 'rubber-band mechanics' and is generally a very, very bad idea. Players are not dumb and will understand perfectly well that they are simply being arbitrarily punished for being successful, removing all causation between their actions and the game's consequences. It's probably among the worst possible ways to handle internal unrest and late-game challenge, as far as I'm concerned."

Me, looking at new Sprawl systems and it's divisive reception: Welp, that's amusing.
That was a response to a person suggesting that players should have to deal with additional rebellions just because they are ahead though.

Empire Sprawl is the same regardless of where you are, and does not punish you just for being ahead of other players. It is not a rubber-band mechanic in the sense that Wiz was using the term in that post.
 
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That was a response to a person suggesting that players should have to deal with additional rebellions just because they are ahead though.

Empire Sprawl is the same regardless of where you are, and does not punish you just for being ahead of other players. It is not a rubber-band mechanic in the sense that Wiz was using the term in that post.

Still, the same thing applies. The new Sprawl is just rubber banding so Tall can try (and still fail) to keep up. Because it sure as heck won't stop Tech Rushing, because you can just replace all those jobs that use to be Sprawl jobs with Tech jobs, and you'll burn through the Tree even faster than before.
 
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Still, the same thing applies. The new Sprawl is just rubber banding so Tall can try (and still fail) to keep up. Because it sure as heck won't stop Tech Rushing, because you can just replace all those jobs that use to be Sprawl jobs with Tech jobs, and you'll burn through the Tree even faster than before.
Then by the same logic, fleet maintenance is rubber banding so empires with smaller economies can try (and fail) to keep up.
If that's the definition of rubber-banding you're using, then I don't see an inherent problem with that kind of rubber-banding.

As I see it, the "bad" kind of rubber-banding is that where the game actively punishes you for being ahead, not the one where the game makes sure that certain playstyles don't get ahead too quickly.
 
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Then by the same logic, fleet maintenance is rubber banding so empires with smaller economies can try (and fail) to keep up.
If that's the definition of rubber-banding you're using, then I don't see an inherent problem with that kind of rubber-banding.

As I see it, the "bad" kind of rubber-banding is that where the game actively punishes you for being ahead, not the one where the game makes sure that certain playstyles don't get ahead too quickly.
The issue, is, they won't keep up, period. Nothing they do, is going to change that reality. So ultimately all their doing, is ruining wides fun, trying to do something they can't achieve.
 
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If this investment tool remains symmetrical and available for everyone, it would mean that the wide would also have access to this tool. Since the wide would get the required resources faster just by harvesting the empty systems, it would invest faster and get rewards faster. That's how yet another snowball would start.
It would need to be based on a resource like influence that doesn't scale with empire size. It has to be "Do I spend 150 influence to add another habitat, claim 2-3 systems, or add 2 more base growth to my capital?" You can spend that influence on one of those three options and you might be able to split it up like claiming 1 system and adding only 1 base growth to your capital. However, it has to be a system where you can't just get bigger and then choose all of them, and if you want to do all 3, you have to do one, wait for influence to accumulate, do the next, wait, and then get the third.

It's why their stance of never offering infinitely scaling increases to influence is a good one, and I'm glad that they're removing some of the uses so that it can be focused into the core areas of growth in the game. Keeping the influence progression to one or two techs, a few traditions, and two very powerful options in the form of a unity ambition and the custodian all works pretty well for this.

While the new tool may make both the tall and the wide equally overpopulated, the tall would very fast hit the limit on districts and buildings and there would not be enough jobs to maintain parity.
Scaling up district counts with fewer limits and/or adding jobs even after you've already built all districts and buildings would be another important component, yes. I think that's less of an issue than pop growth is at the moment, though. Since the pop growth cost change, your empire doesn't fill up at such a snowbally rate. The way it's set up is actually really clever. If you are consistently increasing your pop growth as you increase the number of pops in your empire, the pop growth curve ends up being fairly linear (or at least more so than before). It only starts going exponential or logarithmic if you're expanding your growth speed increases faster than the cost increases or if you're not keeping up with expanding your pop growth.

I also think it's fine to have limits on certain avenues of growth. Peaceful expansion hits a wall once you've claimed all accessible systems. Now you have to either build megastructures or go to war to continue going wide. Aggressive expansion might get stymied if you're blocked in by fallen empires, marauders, and/or advanced start AI, and you might need to turtle up a bit and advance enough that you can make a more aggressive move.

Diplomacy is another avenue for increasing your strength by effectively putting more pops behind your empire's strength by partially adding the strength of your federation mates, which is why I think various diplomatic maneuvers cost influence. It could still use some improvements, but the foundation is there, especially since the AI has been getting incrementally better the last few patches.

Still, the same thing applies. The new Sprawl is just rubber banding so Tall can try (and still fail) to keep up. Because it sure as heck won't stop Tech Rushing, because you can just replace all those jobs that use to be Sprawl jobs with Tech jobs, and you'll burn through the Tree even faster than before.
I don't think the purpose of the rubber banding introduced by sprawl is aimed at the tall vs wide. It's honestly nothing more than a side bonus. If you reduce the distance between empires are ahead and empires who are behind, it "helps" tall due to the fact that it's a weaker strategy. If the main goal was to introduce growth options more consistent with a tall style so it can be properly competitive, then yeah, I think they missed the mark. Planetary Ascension is one possible method, but with it coming from a resource that you can scale up as you grow, it's not an alternative to wide expansion; it's something you can simply do on top of it.

What sprawl's rubber banding does achieve is making games closer and thus, more interesting. It also smooths out the tech curve a bit by adding a cost increase throughout the game that's dynamic to your empire size to go with the cost increase you have as you get into later game techs. I think the tech costs don't increase enough in the beta to achieve this (in my current play through, I have 3 completed ring worlds and took down a fallen empire before 2400), but the core approach works. If you double your size and double your research output, you no longer halve your research times. They're better, but not twice as good, and that's the main purpose here. I think the system is good, but the numbers need tweaking.

The recent pop growth changes introduced a similar rubber banding effect for the number of pops. If you double your number of planets and therefore double the amount of pop growth you have in your empire, the actual rate at which you get pops no longer doubles because more pops means you need more growth.

I think Wiz is right that rubber banding mechanics can feel bad, but I think the solution there is to make them more subtle so they don't feel like they have a huge impact, and to make them bonuses to people behind instead of penalties for being ahead. It's the difference between Mario Kart's blue shell and their subtle adjustments to kart speed based on how far ahead/behind you are. I by no means want a metaphorical Mario Kart blue shell in Stellaris. That would not be fun. The subtle modifiers on speed to encourage closer races, though? That's an approach that translates well to Stellaris, and I like how they've been making advancements there recently, with this sprawl shift being the right direction.



Honestly, I'm coming away from a lot of these discussions suspecting and hoping that these recent changes are setting the stage for a more thorough change to expansion. With some rubber banding for pop count and tech/unity advancement plus unity made useful while removing some of the old non-expansion influence sinks, I think we're set up extremely well for the introduction of new ways to grow internally using influence to provide taller options for expansion than we currently have. Situations might be their way of making those options more interesting than just clicking the upgrade button on your planet every few years as you gain influence, and that might be why we haven't seen much in this direction. I suppose we'll see.
 
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This is honestly the problem with what most people call "tall." Often, what they actually mean is "small." If you have fewer pops, fewer planets, and are generally smaller in every way than another empire, you shouldn't be competitive with them. Rubber banding mechanics are good, but equalizing every empire regardless of size and success is not. Tall needs to be a different kind of big, not be a strategy where you doing nothing can remain competitive to someone actively expanding and conquering. You need to be expanding in a different way; otherwise, it becomes a game where a player who sits there twiddling their thumbs and one who actively plays the game are competitive with each other.

That's why there isn't really a "tall" playstyle in Stellaris and there almost never has been.

If you consider tall vs. wide in Civ, for instance, a tall build has few cities but each city has more population and can work more tiles. Whereas a wide build has more cities but they have to overlap and share workable tiles so each individual city has a lower peak productive output, but the empire can do more builds in parallel as a result.

But in Stellaris having more planets presents absolutely no obstacle to reaching peak productive output on every single one of them, and you basically can't increase productivity without adding population and you can't add population without adding sprawl, which is the game's way of measuring how wide you are (which you used to be able to do when systems counted for the most because you could jam a few systems full of habitats and have a really low penalty, but that didn't matter back then because tech didn't matter for productivity and naked corvettes or beelined armour cruisers ruled the day, so even when you could be tall it didn't get you anything).
 
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That's why there isn't really a "tall" playstyle in Stellaris and there almost never has been.

If you consider tall vs. wide in Civ, for instance, a tall build has few cities but each city has more population and can work more tiles. Whereas a wide build has more cities but they have to overlap and share workable tiles so each individual city has a lower peak productive output, but the empire can do more builds in parallel as a result.

But in Stellaris having more planets presents absolutely no obstacle to reaching peak productive output on every single one of them, and you basically can't increase productivity without adding population and you can't add population without adding sprawl, which is the game's way of measuring how wide you are (which you used to be able to do when systems counted for the most because you could jam a few systems full of habitats and have a really low penalty, but that didn't matter back then because tech didn't matter for productivity and naked corvettes or beelined armour cruisers ruled the day, so even when you could be tall it didn't get you anything).

Civ 4 had a bunch of 1-per-empire buildings ("National Wonders" as opposed to 1-per-planet "World Wonders") which meant you'd get at most one city which could simply be better at a particular thing than any other city in your empire.

That meant a small number of specialized cities could perform relatively well against a larger number of cities, for a while at least.

Even then, though, playing 6-city "tall" was usually about timing your breakout -- you usually don't win by staying at 6-city size, but rather you leverage a temporary advantage (maybe your civ's Unique Unit, or Cuirassiers if you don't have a relevant UU) and then you conquer a neighbor or two using that advantage.

There were a few "win tall" builds, like the 3-city Culture Victory build, or the 6-city Science Victory build, but generally you were "tall" temporarily because you got boxed in, and breaking out was your winning move.

After you break out, you're just as "wide" as everyone else.
 

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That excuse the designer gave was unconvincing and poor game design in action. Scroll down and read

100% agree. This was such a bad take by wiz.
I don't get this flaming of the devs at the time. If you actually read the reddit thread, you'll see that Wiz's comments explaining why there are no potent and annoying rebellions in Stellaris have wayyyyyyy more upvotes than the comments criticizing Stellaris for having weak rebellions. Clearly the vast majority, as Wiz explained, really don't want to have to deal with rebellions all the time.

This thread is not representative of the greater Stellaris playerbase that doesn't have hundreds of hours and spend all their time on the official game forums. The devs have to care about answering everyone's concerns and making the best game possible for the largest amount of people, not just what the loud minorities talk about here.
 
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I don't get this flaming of the devs at the time. If you actually read the reddit thread, you'll see that Wiz's comments explaining why there are no potent and annoying rebellions in Stellaris have wayyyyyyy more upvotes than the comments criticizing Stellaris for having weak rebellions. Clearly the vast majority, as Wiz explained, really don't want to have to deal with rebellions all the time.

This thread is not representative of the greater Stellaris playerbase that doesn't have hundreds of hours and spend all their time on the official game forums. The devs have to care about answering everyone's concerns and making the best game possible for the largest amount of people, not just what the loud minorities talk about here.
I'm not "flaming" anyone. I simply explained why in my view his statement is wrong and why a well designed rebellion mechanic would be extremely cool for the game. My comment was constructive. You shouldn't label constructive criticism of others opinions as "flaming", especially when players are giving feedback about a game to the developers.

Also i couldn't care less for which reddit coments have more upvotes lol, that's not at all indicative of a good argument. Redditors are always going to upvote the devs just because they're devs.
 
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I'm not "flaming" anyone. I simply explained why in my view his statement is wrong and why a well designed rebellion mechanic would be extremely cool for the game. My comment was constructive. You shouldn't label constructive criticism of others opinions as "flaming", especially when players are giving feedback about a game to the developers.

Also i couldn't care less for which reddit coments have more upvotes lol, that's not at all indicative of a good argument. Redditors are always going to upvote the devs just because they're devs.
Devs absolutely get downvoted when they give unpopular opinions. But I don't think the devs opinions on this were unpopular ones, considering he was (presumably) backing them up with data. If it would make Paradox more money (from more games and DLCs sold) to have more punishing rebellion mechanics, they would have done it.
 
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