As someone who stopped playing this game long ago, My opinion about sprawl changes

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Victor1234

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This directly contradicts the previous point though. He says people don't want rebellions, then says OK you're right they do and we know how to make them cool and fun but it's not a priority. People don't like a thing =/= implementing thing in the way people like isn't a priority.
I would have thought the bigger problem is that in the first post, the dev presumes to know what people are thinking (players think they want X but I know better...)

Always a bad sign when someone claims to be a mind reader and is not in fact a brain slug from outer space.
 

Azhcristokos

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Back in the day, it was none stop action. You get a big empire and start to slack? BAM!!! You lose a world to a rebel force. or slave revolt.

What day was this, because I’ve been playing since launch and never once have I thought empire management involved nonstop action and never once have any of my planets rebelled lol
 
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What day was this, because I’ve been playing since launch and never once have I thought empire management involved nonstop action and never once have any of my planets rebelled lol
I'm inclined to agree. There definitely were some mechanics for rebellions and empire breakups in 1.X versions, but to pretend that they couldn't be largely ignored if you played halfway competently, is somewhat of a stretch. I don't remember it ever being a serious issue, especially if you played a non-conquest focused game.
 
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Ryika

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I would have thought the bigger problem is that in the first post, the dev presumes to know what people are thinking (players think they want X but I know better...)

Always a bad sign when someone claims to be a mind reader and is not in fact a brain slug from outer space.
I disagree with this. Collecting feedback and interpreting it is a huge part of being a successful developer. Players are very good at identifying the problems that they have, but their solutions are often focused largely, or even solely, on solving the problem, with little to no regard for what these changes might mean for the greater picture.

I would say that what differentiates a good developer from a bad developer is not whether they try to "mind read", but rather how good they're at it, and how well they can transform that information into mechanical changes that make the game better.
 
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I would have thought the bigger problem is that in the first post, the dev presumes to know what people are thinking (players think they want X but I know better...)

Always a bad sign when someone claims to be a mind reader and is not in fact a brain slug from outer space.
On top of what Ryika said, even when it's a very straightforward want with little to no room for misunderstanding like "I want rebellions" it's perfectly acceptable in any kind of design job to say "I know you want this, but there's no good way to implement it". So "The fundamental problem with rebellion mechanics in games is that players think they want rebellions, but the vast majority really do not. The idea of your empire falling apart is fun and exciting, the actual experience is simply frustrating." is him giving his professional opinion on what is actually possible, not mind reading.

But he then follows up by describing how it can and has been implemented in a fun and interesting manner so the whole argument just kind of falls apart.
 
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Victor1234

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I disagree with this. Collecting feedback and interpreting it is a huge part of being a successful developer. Players are very good at identifying the problems that they have, but their solutions are often focused largely, or even solely, on solving the problem, with little to no regard for what these changes might mean for the greater picture.

I would say that what differentiates a good developer from a bad developer is not whether they try to "mind read", but rather how good they're at it, and how well they can transform that information into mechanical changes that make the game better.
The dev wasn't really collecting feedback at all though or interpreting anything. He was basically presented with a problem and then told the users it wasn't a problem because he knew better.

Player: I bought a DLC that promised rebellions. Why are there no rebellions?
Dev: You don't really want rebellions (despite buying the DLC that promised them...), you just think you do.

It's the way development used to work for a long time, back when there were far less interactions between the developers and end consumers. Developers would build something, consumers would either like or hate it, and the minimal patching would at best focus on minor tweaks, but largely bug fixing rather than balance.

Now with DLCs, there is more of a feedback loop that impacts future DLCs/direction of the game but that's still essentially reactive since the first DLC releases in a vacuum. As an aside, if the devs had any regard for the greater picture, I would assume we wouldn't see such wild swings between the first release of a game and the current state.

In mobile gaming, and increasingly in PC gaming, instead there's the concept of an MVP (minimum viable product) that is released for free/as a demo to the players (in PC games they call it a 'prologue'), so that instead of building something that the players don't actually want and finding out after it's built, or trying to interpret what players would want, you can invest far less resources to try out game mechanics without building the whole game and then having to radically alter it.

In effect, the players rather than developers control the direction of the development based on real feedback of them trying something out, rather than theoretical interpretations of what developers think players want.
 
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I don't think sprawl was meant to move the game in the direction you seem to want. As best as I can tell, it's just a mechanic to slow the snowball and rubber band things a little bit so that games are closer and tech/tradition speeds are a bit more consistent.

AFAICT Sprawl is mostly there to slow down tech rushing so that you don't *always* run out of techs to research in 2290.

Whether it's actually any good at that is another matter.

Stellaris has never had a convincing rebellion mechanic that wasn't absolutely trivial to manage outside of possibly the earliest part of the game.
 
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Sure, but if the game is constantly frustrating them do you really think they will stick around? If you're to reach 100+ hours of any game you need to find it enjoyable for all of those first 100 hours, not get frustrated every fifth or tenth hour because the game curve balled you or because some opaque mechanic did something you couldn't foresee.


The result is a game more people can enjoy. That might make it worse for the die-hard Grognards, but more people will be able to play the game and enjoy it. This is good both for Pdx (cash flow, baby!) and for the game's community, because there will be more people around to appreciate and talk about the game.

All this of course assumes that the devs vision for the game isn't to make it an approachable 4x game. Which it very well might be. A recurring issue I have with this line of reasoning is the assumption that if the devs weren't simpering, spineless cowards they'd make your ideal game, instead of assuming that the devs are actually sticking as close to their vision as they realistically can.
No one who loves playing first person shooters or other genres far away from 4x games will enjoy this game... just look what happened to BF2042... they tried to cater to the battle royal crowd, stabing BF Vets right in the heart and failed miserably... its not about to cater to die-hard Grognards only but to cater to people who love playing 4x games... and those people are used to invest a lot of time into a game... and BTW you completely ignored the part with the difficulties i have talked about... those people who you talk about have the option for easy mode... THEY CANT FAIL!!!

To make an approachable game? Dude have you read what i have written? I have said that Stellaris v1.0 was one of the most approachable paradox games ever... or at least Stellaris pre 2.0... NOW!!! IT IS NOT ANYMORE... the devs vision is clearly not to make it as approachable as possible but to milk the game with DLCs before Stellaris 2, hopefully, will be released...

And again you have ignored what i have written... the devs clearly have no vision... the devs don't understand their own game mechanics otherwise it would be a far more balanced game... the devs might do indeed stuff they like... but they slap that stuff onto a pile of other mechanics breaking them, or making them not really important... the galactic community is a great idea but badly implemented... more espionage is great but you can ignore it, it is not important... they said we make diplomacy great again... it still really isn't... the tile system was APPROACHABLE but instead of expanding it, they dropped it and replaced it with a mechanic that again broke other stuff... its not about an ideal game... its about to cater to those who will probably play the game for the longest time and stick around... not to do stupid stuff to attract people who will drop the game anyway, even if it is catered to them... after a short time...

Imagine one of the bosses saying: Lets try to grab some animal crossing fans that game is booming... implement some sci-fi animals you can pet and feed and stuff...
Dev: But sir we are working on an AI overhaul people complaining about our retarded bots... we cant do both...
Boss: Do the animal stuff!!!

Do you think that such things would be a good idea??? But i hope with the old, new head at paradox their games might improve again... hopefully...
 
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Ryika

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The dev wasn't really collecting feedback at all though or interpreting anything. He was basically presented with a problem and then told the users it wasn't a problem because he knew better.
There is no "problem" in that thread to begin with. OP had a certain expectation towards the DLC, that expectation was not met, so they asked whether that's a common and expected experience. They didn't even seem particularly annoyed by the experience, just wondering if that's the expected result. Wiz then confirmed this, and explained why the team decided not to have potent rebellions by offering his general opinion on the matter, and giving a few examples.

But yeah, obviously he wasn't collecting feedback in that very moment. He was responding to a question and sharing his thoughts. But just because I'm not eating right now, does not mean I never eat. Whatever method he used to arrive at the opinions that he expressed there, were utilized in the past.

Player: I bought a DLC that promised rebellions. Why are there no rebellions?
Dev: You don't really want rebellions (despite buying the DLC that promised them...), you just think you do.
That's pretty unfair in my opinion. Wiz did not tell OP that OP does not want rebellions, he explained that the DLC does not include potent rebellions because "the vast majority" of people does not like them in his opinion. He's not telling OP that he does know better what he (OP) wants, he's saying that from his experience most people do not want it, and then he gives examples for why he holds that opinion.

So... he's not talking about OP at all, he's talking to OP, telling them his reasoning behind the way factions were implemented. Which is once again exactly what OP had asked for.

In effect, the players rather than developers control the direction of the development based on real feedback of them trying something out, rather than theoretical interpretations of what developers think players want.
No, even in this scenario it's still the developers controlling the direction of the development. They're the ones who decide what to "try out", and they do so based on their understanding and interpretation of what is likely to create certain desired results.
 
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What day was this, because I’ve been playing since launch and never once have I thought empire management involved nonstop action and never once have any of my planets rebelled lol
I'm inclined to agree. There definitely were some mechanics for rebellions and empire breakups in 1.X versions, but to pretend that they couldn't be largely ignored if you played halfway competently, is somewhat of a stretch. I don't remember it ever being a serious issue, especially if you played a non-conquest focused game.

That's not true. Once an empire got big, fringe planets would constantly shift ethics. Made a lot of people pick Individualist(?) as an ethos to reduce the penalty. Collective ethos had to constantly pay attention to revolts. You couldn't just take planets and go about your business. The conquered pops would be mad and would quickly take the planet back if you ignored them. You had to keep armies around to reduce unrest or fight back an army you know was about to spawn on a planet that high unrest.


People cared about it so much that they would actively purge pops that were unruly. WE WERE MUDERING OUR OWN POPS!!!!
 
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That's not true. Once an empire got big, fringe planets would constantly shift ethics. Made a lot of people pick Individualist(?) as an ethos to reduce the penalty. Collective ethos had to constantly pay attention to revolts. You couldn't just take planets and go about your business. The conquered pops would be mad and would quickly take the planet back if you ignored them. You had to keep armies around to reduce unrest or fight back an army you know was about to spawn on a planet that high unrest.


People cared about it so much that they would actively purge pops that were unruly. WE WERE MUDERING OUR OWN POPS!!!!

It really wasn't that bad, and as you said, all you had to do was slap a few armies on a planet and call it a day. There is also a reason why it was abandoned: people hated it. Not just because of revolts (which were not really an issue), but because it meant that you had two actual choices when it kept to keeping any ethical cohesion: Fanatic Spiritualist/Collectivist or Fanatic Individualist. Without those, you could just, as I said, station a few cheap armies on problem planets and be done with it.

My point wasn't that having rebellions and instability would be bad, or that they could not have done more with the system, but simply that A) it was not non-stop action and B) even then could be ignored by any player remotely familiar with the game and it really was not significantly different than EU IV's "stack spawns, kill stack, rebellion over" system.

I desperately want them to make politics more complex and allow for empires to actually disintegrate, but the game has never done that well. Gosh, at launch, there weren't even slave revolts.
 
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I think another thing that would make rebellions have teeth, but not be annoying, is government ethics shifting based on your actions but the pops not immediately shifting with unless you win them over. So if you're a fanatic egalitarian and adopt decadent, that will eventually drop you down to regular egalitarian. Only now you have a massive fanatic egalitarian faction unhappy about decadent, demanding utopian abundance (or shared burdens as it is also equal), and becoming more and more likely to revolt to get it. This of course would require a politics system nuanced enough to let fanatic and regular factions of the same ethic split under certain circumstances, and the bigger of the two to swallow the other under other conditions.
 
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The new internal stability mechanic is a way out of this because it makes the gameplay less linear and less mathematical. The quote you posted is the one I disagree with. Rebellions may be a good and an interesting mechanic if implemented right. For example, old CK2 rebellion system was truly dangerous and made sense, while still allowing the player to prevent the rebellion or beat it in the battlefied through tactics.
I've never understood why internal stability mechanics are the thing that people go to in the tall/wide discussion. I have always felt the fundamental issue preventing tall play from matching wide is that pop growth has always been tied to the number of planets you have. As long as more planets equals more pops and pops are the fundamental unit of power, it will always be true that more planets is more powerful. Trying to introduce all these different ways of holding it back is missing the point and isn't going to result in a balanced game.

I think the fundamental change Stellaris would need is to decouple your empire's pop growth from the number of planets you have so that large planets can grow pops faster. In theory, they have that in one place with the ecumenopolis's boost to growth, but a 50% additive increase on one or a few planet is insignificant compared to adding another full planet's worth of base growth to your empire (also, I've always felt like having more than one or possibly two ecumenopolises greatly reduces their impact in the same way being able to spam Dyson spheres in the old days made them less compelling). What we need instead is to add options for developing your planets in a way that increases pop growth in a fashion similar to expanding outward and adding more colonies.

I also think it's rather silly to set up all the mechanics so that being large in the tall direction means you avoid a bunch of penalties and other mechanics while being large in a wide sense has to introduce all these penalties. If they execute rebellions and internal stuff well, I'd want to see it and interact with it even when I'm a smaller empire. It should be different, sure, but it shouldn't just not happen.
 
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I've never understood why internal stability mechanics are the thing that people go to in the tall/wide discussion. I have always felt the fundamental issue preventing tall play from matching wide is that pop growth has always been tied to the number of planets you have. As long as more planets equals more pops and pops are the fundamental unit of power, it will always be true that more planets is more powerful. Trying to introduce all these different ways of holding it back is missing the point and isn't going to result in a balanced game.

I think the fundamental change Stellaris would need is to decouple your empire's pop growth from the number of planets you have so that large planets can grow pops faster. In theory, they have that in one place with the ecumenopolis's boost to growth, but a 50% additive increase on one or a few planet is insignificant compared to adding another full planet's worth of base growth to your empire (also, I've always felt like having more than one or possibly two ecumenopolises greatly reduces their impact in the same way being able to spam Dyson spheres in the old days made them less compelling). What we need instead is to add options for developing your planets in a way that increases pop growth in a fashion similar to expanding outward and adding more colonies.

I also think it's rather silly to set up all the mechanics so that being large in the tall direction means you avoid a bunch of penalties and other mechanics while being large in a wide sense has to introduce all these penalties. If they execute rebellions and internal stuff well, I'd want to see it and interact with it even when I'm a smaller empire. It should be different, sure, but it shouldn't just not happen.
i think being able to increase pop growth when you ascend a planet in some way could help. in theory, playing tall you should be able to ascend a higher percentage of your planets, and be able to ascend them higher. but i do think the unity system interacting with stability mechanics would also help. like, running a unity deficit for example should eventually start to impact your stability. but beyond that, decisions made in the upcoming political content should have an impact on your rebellions, not a linear one but gradually till you reach certain tipping points, then gradually again. like punctuated equilibria. anyways, what if the crisis mechanics were used for rebellions for example, only instead of crisis points you're accumulating social crisis points lol. see what i mean?

like if you get to a certain point of oppressing your people in terms of the decisions you keep taking or of oppressing a crushing majority of xenos or slaves or whatever, a fanatic faction is born. these can then grow enough that there's another tipping point reached, and a reskinned crisis mechanic for a social crisis opens up. and then after that, that's a big flashing warning sign of five stages or whatever that you kind have to be really intentionally pissing off your people or whatever to not notice. then you have a revolution, again still not creating a new state because that's really imo rare unless there's outside interference, you have a certain like ultimate crisis and if you lose that then you start losing planets but still not to a new state. it's like a situation of dual power. hell they could use the same contested map paint filter they had from back when you could build in the same systems.

anyways, basically at that point it starts becoming more a civil war, and the worse you do the closer it gets to either your leader being killed and player forced to adopt new ethics "by the masses", or if the player managed to fight the rebels to a standstill where they have strongholds and so does the player, and they've reached the civil war exhaustion meter of the population, then the player loses territory. see basically it would be between regular wars that something like this could pop if you're taking certain actions or playing certain ethics. and don't worry, the same mechanic can go the other way.

say i'm playing fanatic egalitarian with utopian abundance. now say i have a bunch of crime popping up. that's a black market, outside of my egalitarian economy (1:1:1 consumer goods per class), filling someone's filthy pockets. that's basically at that point very tempting to certain people in the bureaucracy, to have their palms greased to keep the capitalist black market rolling in filth. so if i choose to ignore that, i risk something very dangerous, elements of my bureaucracy want to get rid of this economy because as Trotsky once said a corrupt privilege is only half as sweet if you can't give it to your children (paraphrasing). so they want to be able to accumulate vast amounts of capital themselves, get rich themselves, adopt something like decadence perhaps? anyways, let's say these folk want a return to authoritarianism, to live it up on the backs of the specialist and worker class. maybe the shadow council civic could also play into this!

if i let them grow long enough, their faction which wants to seize power will also grow its support (what if ships and their leaders could acquire ethical allegiances at the fifth stage just before a civil war? warning you of the need to clean house, like Allende was warned). And all the time decisions new chapters of the social crisis are opening up, both in a social crisis system thing and in a thing similar to the digsites but for political events. and if you take the right decisions, disarm the opposition or whatever, and aren't hamfisted but also aren't naive, then you're fine. but if you don't act swiftly and firmly, if you ignore the rising authoritarian threat, even a democracy can die without a fight. which isn't the end, but if there is no fight than the democratic faction is left with a weaker underground, so if the player wants to roleplay overthrowing that dictatorship in the late game, they better go down fighting and leave an inspiration for the next generation :p
 

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Rebellions are common in Crusader Kings 3 and they are still annoying, but fun. Because dealing with them means you won't have Rebellion for X years and you also get another prisoner which you can interact with. Its more than just sending your army somewhere and be done with it, which is much better design.

No idea if Stellaris could adopt any of this. Stelallaris is a strategy game, not a roleplay simulator. The only goal is to see numbers go up and your empire spread across the galaxy until you decide to delete the savefile.
Imo if Stellaris want to adopt rebellion mechanic from other games from paradox, it should be from imperator rome tbh that game mechanic seem almost perfect for stellaris, they would only need to tweak leader a little.
 
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On top of what Ryika said, even when it's a very straightforward want with little to no room for misunderstanding like "I want rebellions" it's perfectly acceptable in any kind of design job to say "I know you want this, but there's no good way to implement it". So "The fundamental problem with rebellion mechanics in games is that players think they want rebellions, but the vast majority really do not. The idea of your empire falling apart is fun and exciting, the actual experience is simply frustrating." is him giving his professional opinion on what is actually possible, not mind reading.

But he then follows up by describing how it can and has been implemented in a fun and interesting manner so the whole argument just kind of falls apart.
"do you not have phones?"
"you think you do, but you dont"
 
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Marmelado

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I've never understood why internal stability mechanics are the thing that people go to in the tall/wide discussion. I have always felt the fundamental issue preventing tall play from matching wide is that pop growth has always been tied to the number of planets you have. As long as more planets equals more pops and pops are the fundamental unit of power, it will always be true that more planets is more powerful. Trying to introduce all these different ways of holding it back is missing the point and isn't going to result in a balanced game.

I think the fundamental change Stellaris would need is to decouple your empire's pop growth from the number of planets you have so that large planets can grow pops faster. In theory, they have that in one place with the ecumenopolis's boost to growth, but a 50% additive increase on one or a few planet is insignificant compared to adding another full planet's worth of base growth to your empire (also, I've always felt like having more than one or possibly two ecumenopolises greatly reduces their impact in the same way being able to spam Dyson spheres in the old days made them less compelling). What we need instead is to add options for developing your planets in a way that increases pop growth in a fashion similar to expanding outward and adding more colonies.

I also think it's rather silly to set up all the mechanics so that being large in the tall direction means you avoid a bunch of penalties and other mechanics while being large in a wide sense has to introduce all these penalties. If they execute rebellions and internal stuff well, I'd want to see it and interact with it even when I'm a smaller empire. It should be different, sure, but it shouldn't just not happen.

The reason I personally bring it up is because, in my opinion, Stellaris needs creative and asymmetrical game design choices to solve the wide/tall disparity, instead of tuning existing numbers or introducing even more numbers to tune.

Direct correlation between growth and number of planets is a factor that leads to increased disparity, but it is not the only one. Tech system, sprawl system, district system, space resource system, unity system and pretty much everything else in Stellaris contributes to disparity because almost all of it runs on the same math formula favoring the wide. Of course someone can tune in the numbers in one system of choice, like unity system in beta or planet growth system, but it likely won't work as intended because the underlying formula is still in place and is going to keep causing problems. For example, you can give the tall planets +100% growth, but the math is very likely to balance itself out and over time the wide is still going to win or maybe it would win even easier. How can you beat the formula by playing according to its rules?

An alternative solution is to get away from the math as much as possible.
 
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