As Poland, I turned away a 6/6/6 leader ...

[IrishGirl]

... and took the Jagiellon instead. Of course, I got a 4/4/1 ruler and personal union with Lithuania.

Now I'm kind of having buyer's remorse. That is the best decision, right?

 

[Zephyrum]

I'd have murdered Lithuania manually. The ruler is already pretty bad, the government that comes along is terrifyingly awful. A 6/6/6 would get me so ahead in tech I wouldn't have a problem shooting up Lithuania instead of just getting the free union.

 

[bradles0]

if you don't PU lithuania Russia eats it while your back is turned.

 

[makaramus]

there is a second strategy you can use allways if you dont mind not getting elective monarchy
you can royal marriage with only lithuania , get a 6/6/6 jagellion, force lithuania have a union with you
this may cause you to lose historical friend status! but if you manage to ally russia and let him do all the dirty work for you then you may even keep it while slowing down muscovy

 

[IrishGirl]

Is there any penalty for NOT forming the Commonwealth? I mean, could I have just taken Lithuania (murdered her, as @Zephyrum suggests) and then just continued on, allied to Muscovy, taking all her lands?

 

[LeKaiser]

Is there any penalty for NOT forming the Commonwealth? I mean, could I have just taken Lithuania (murdered her, as @Zephyrum suggests) and then just continued on, allied to Muscovy, taking all her lands?

Not anything you wouldn't expect - the disadvantage is the years of overextension, admin points, aggressive expansion, etc., that you spend conquering Lithuania that could've been spent conquering another neighbor while Lithuania was in a PU.

 

[Badesumofu]

Now that multiple PUs don't block the Commonwealth decision I'd quite like to give Poland a go to see how effectively I can use EM to duck in and out of different dynasties to see how many PUs I can collect.

Plus I haven't seen a successful Commonwealth for ages and it bothers me.

 

[Ironside121]

Poland with Lithuania is strong, without it, Lithuania is your only main area to expand into without help. With Lithuania and the Elective Monarchy you're a PU god, honestly.

 

[Zephyrum]

Is there any penalty for NOT forming the Commonwealth? I mean, could I have just taken Lithuania (murdered her, as @Zephyrum suggests) and then just continued on, allied to Muscovy, taking all her lands?

Not really. And you can still Enforce the commonwealth if you own some provinces.

The losses is admin/AE/OE, that's it.

The government is a mixed bag. It's good at getting PUs with some effort, but it's kinda annoying to handle, gives some bad events, and lowers your max absolutism.

It's worth for a PU with Lithuania, but for a 6/6/6, it's arguable. But then again, that's assuming that 6/6/6 doesn't die at the age of 30...

 

[FrogCrusher]

From here : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-dev-diary-3-elective-monarchy-rivals.788477/
Elective monarchy are also very good to generate good rulers. If it's still true 2+d4 is awesome !!! The nominal case for every one is 2d4-2. The mean value for the stats is 4.5 instead of 3. And for a foreign heir, it's 3.5, still above 3. You have godlike ruler with that government

 

[pttaylor]

eh, with the ability to disinherit heirs normal monarchies get way above the nominal average stats, assuming you're a major and can easily farm prestige (which the PLC definitely is, and even early Poland alone kind of is). Most people cite a stat average of ~ 11 or 12 total points after taking into account disinheriting, which while worse than local nobles is noticeably better than the foreign heirs you're actually likely to get (and likely to fish for, for PUs).
I do think the PU game is strong enough to be worth the government form, given you can switch out by decision around the time absolutism rolls around anyway.

 

[adriankowaty]

Follow historical route.
Friendship with Lithuania - even if it's hard, but achievable - Sejm cooperation and your only problem will be foreing rulers trying to undermine your Crown to get that Crown - just as in reality - while you're trying to reform and develop the country - which, specifically, was quite common idea in 16th and late 18th centuries.
Election wars ruined this country, but overall parliamentary "mixta monarchy" wasn't that bad.

 

[YuriiH]

Is there any penalty for NOT forming the Commonwealth?

Yes. 1) A bunch of admin on coring mediocre to poor lands. 2) Time and manpower spent on wars with Lithuania, while they could be spent elsewhere.

P.S. 6/6/6 ruler is a bet on the random—he may die at 25-30-35-40. Lithuanian PU is a bet on 100% win.

 

[Shadow_PL]

Sorry, had to do it

Jagiellon route should be much easier to play even with this stats for noble

 

[FrogCrusher]

eh, with the ability to disinherit heirs normal monarchies get way above the nominal average stats, assuming you're a major and can easily farm prestige (which the PLC definitely is, and even early Poland alone kind of is). Most people cite a stat average of ~ 11 or 12 total points after taking into account disinheriting, which while worse than local nobles is noticeably better than the foreign heirs you're actually likely to get (and likely to fish for, for PUs).

Indeed, and it's calculated very easily
Here the table of the mean stats with respect to the limit beyond which there is no reroll and the maximum number of times you want to disinherit an heir.

   Max times   |
    Disinherit |   1   |   2   |   3   |   4   |   5   |
_______________|       |       |       |       |       |
               |       |       |       |       |       |
Reroll below   |       |       |       |       |       |
(included)     |       |       |       |       |       |
---------------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
      0        |  9.00 |  9.00 |  9.00 |  9.00 |  9.00 |
      1        |  9.01 |  9.01 |  9.01 |  9.01 |  9.01 |
      2        |  9.05 |  9.05 |  9.05 |  9.05 |  9.05 |
      3        |  9.13 |  9.13 |  9.13 |  9.13 |  9.13 |
      4        |  9.28 |  9.29 |  9.29 |  9.29 |  9.29 |
      5        |  9.49 |  9.54 |  9.54 |  9.55 |  9.55 |
      6        |  9.74 |  9.87 |  9.90 |  9.90 |  9.90 |
      7        |  9.96 | 10.24 | 10.33 | 10.35 | 10.36 |
      8        | 10.09 | 10.56 | 10.76 | 10.85 | 10.88 |
      9        | 10.09 | 10.71 | 11.07 | 11.27 | 11.39 |
     10        |  9.96 | 10.63 | 11.11 | 11.44 | 11.68 |
     11        |  9.74 | 10.34 | 10.82 | 11.22 | 11.55 |
     12        |  9.49 |  9.93 | 10.32 | 10.68 | 10.99 |
     13        |  9.28 |  9.54 |  9.79 | 10.03 | 10.26 |
     14        |  9.13 |  9.26 |  9.39 |  9.51 |  9.63 |
     15        |  9.05 |  9.10 |  9.15 |  9.20 |  9.25 |
     16        |  9.01 |  9.03 |  9.04 |  9.06 |  9.07 |
     17        |  9.00 |  9.00 |  9.01 |  9.01 |  9.01 |
     18        |  9.00 |  9.00 |  9.00 |  9.00 |  9.00 |

It must be also said that god like ruler for elective monarchy are only available with Res Publica DLC. And disinherit with Rights of Man DLC.

 

[Zephyrum]

I don't think you can disenherit in Elective Monarchies?

 

[makaramus]

I don't think you can disenherit in Elective Monarchies?

well... you kinda dont have heir

 

[FrogCrusher]

I don't think you can disenherit in Elective Monarchies?

No, you don't. My table is for normal rulers.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tossing the 6/6/6 is nuts if he has the immortal trait, which is impossible without custom nations or importing CK2 .

You made the right call. Power spike on state cores from insta-annex is pretty good. Drop the government like a live ferret ASAP through the event chain once it's available and get absolutism going once you're in that era.

 

[IrishGirl]

I wanted to do an update in case anyone was interested:

I did two starts, and in both the alternatives were the Jagiellon or a very high stat Polish noble. In both cases I chose the Jagiellon - thanks for the help! - because what became really clear to me was how poor Lithuania's provinces are. Supply limit alone is ... painful.

On the upside, Polish cavalry. Yeah. By the time I got winged hussars, my armies could roll over the enemy. I revoked Moldavia's march and annexed them easily (raised their opinion to 200, revoked march, waited ten years and repeated to annex). By 1462, I had Cossacks and then had the +20 Cavalry combat bonus. I also followed a path Arumba explored during his last Poland game where he rented out his armies to Novogrod. I raised my army to force limit, split it in half, then rented half to Novogrod while using the other as a reserve and to increase professionalism. Every so often I'd switch them out. Novogrod was always fighting someone, never refused the offer, and the money was very helpful early game where I seemed to suffer a bit from insufficient funds.

All that fighting on Novogrod's behalf did give me enough Army Tradition to get a passable general with two shock pips. At that point I could begin to expand without problem. Then I decided to restart this afternoon to make it more efficient.

So if I can ask two more questions:

1. Is it worth it to Westernize? I'm not doing a WC and my primary goal is to expand eastward and take over Muscovy/Russia. Another option is to try and early game roll into the Ottomans by allying with Byzantium.

2. I'm currently running 8/6/4 armies. I have two and they seem invincible (obviously, I'm not chasing a stack of 30 with these). Mid-game, I was thinking of adding two more cavalry. I feel like Poland could pull this off and ducat for ducat, it would result in a more powerful army (and, yeah, winged hussars on the map.) Assuming I'm going for Noble Knights and Finest of Horses, too.

I'm considering taking espionage for the Noble Loyalty Act (it is +20% combat ability) but that would be the ONLY reason I'd take it and that seems kind of a waste of idea points just to get 20% Cavalry Combat Ability. But it is 20% and totaled with my other buffs would give me almost 100% CCA. Do people think it's worth it?

Thanks again for your help earlier.